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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#541

Post by hannasanarion »

crumpets wrote: post #524
hannasanarion wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winner. The only way to solve the inherent adversity in the employer/employee relationship is to eliminate the employer/employee distinction. Expecting owners to be fair by default is to be at the whim of their charity. "Friendly work environment" and other anti-union canards are merely an attempt to paper over exploitative behavior with flowery words. Unions are a stopgap at best. The only b…

>The only way to solve the inherent adversity in the employer/employee relationship is to eliminate the employer/employee distinction. It has little to do with that. As long as there are managers, there will always been a tension between what the employee wants to do and what the manager is expected to deliver to the rest of the company.

That's like saying that democracy is useless because politicians and public officers write and enforce the rules.

Yeah, authority structures have to exist, but the authorities make different decisions when they're appointed from above vs elected from below.

Democratic ownership and operation of the state has been the global norm for almost a century. It's not that radical to apply the same principle to business. What is business but government in microcosm? Why should we be content to spend 40 hours a week larping feudalism?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#542

Post by Aeolun »

Angostura wrote: post #533
tomohawk wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

And suddenly you've created Accenture

They literally provide ‘stuff’. Not sure whether it’s actual solutions.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#543

Post by mnm1 »

edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

You think the work ethic is different elsewhere when employers treat their employees like shit in 99% of companies? There might not be seminars, but each worker figures out how to put in the minimum amount of effort on their own while looking like they are working hard. Why would they do anything else when most companies do not offer raises, promotions, merit-based bonuses, career advancement, decent vacation, or anything at all to incentivize their employees to perform at anything but the most minimal level? Employees who work harder are fools and idiots who burn themselves out for a company that doesn't give a fuck about them and will happily replace them like any machine part when they're too sick to work anymore. Appearances can be deceiving. Out of over a dozen companies I've worked for, I've never once seen anything different. This is what US employers incentivize and that is what they get, to the detriment of everyone.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#544

Post by Aeolun »

SimonPStevens wrote: post #487
criddell wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does there have to be standard working terms? In the US professional baseball, hockey, and football have player unions and things like salary are negotiated per person.

They aren't standard working terms because of the unions. They are standard working terms because all teachers (who work in state schools at least) are employed by the local education authorities, who in turn set their working terms and salaries based on the government's department for education. So for teachers there is no individual salary negotiation, it's all decided centrally by the government and you either tak…

This is not to say that individual teachers cannot earn more or less, just that the scale on which they are being paid has been decided in advance, right?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#545

Post by toomanybeersies »

edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

The way I see it, companies and unions work in a sort of adversarial relationship that should in theory work in the favour of the employee.

Of course, like any kind of organisation, whether it's a company, a business, a charity, a religion, or a political party, people will attempt to score themselves the best position and also improve the position of the organisation. This isn't a unique problem with unions, but with any kind of organisation, it's all money and power at the end of the day.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#546

Post by Aeolun »

crumpets wrote: post #511
megy wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. Work less? Or work 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week? There are plenty of examples out there of people who think that is the bare minimum. > They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. Of course, that is what a strike is, but a necessary evil.

>Work less? Or work 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week? There are plenty of examples out there of people who think that is the bare minimum. Work less. There is no point in trying to put out anymore output than the bare minimum required if that's both the agreement between the union and the employee (promotions based on tenure) and between the union and the company (agreements on what minimum deliverables employees will…

At this point the union becomes useless, since any competent developer won’t be part of it.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#547

Post by perfmode »

trhway wrote: post #534
ace_of_spades wrote: post #401

To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists? I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well i…

>problems of labor mistreatment i don't think there have been times in tech when employees were paid and overall treated better than today (maybe the boom 20 years ago comes somewhat close). Even more, I think tech employees situation today beats any other mass employment situation in the history of humankind.

There’s the issue of TVCs.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#548

Post by michaelmrose »

edoo wrote: post #153

I've been in a union before. The work ethic wasn't good. They had seminars on how to work less and push back against complaints. They directed the members to engage in behavior that was best for the union while bad for the workers and the company. The union itself is a big business, what would they think of unionizing the union? Unions allow substandard work for equal pay. That tends to hold back the major opportunit…

It seems like you are presenting the flaws of a union as the flaws of all unions. Why should we take this as the general case instead of merely an anecdote.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#549

Post by zaksoup »

nerder92 wrote: post #497
tomohawk wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

You are basically describing ThoughtWorks.

Except afaict the big agile consultancies underpay relative to tech industry big names.

Source: fmr pivotal labs

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#550

Post by falcor84 »

president wrote: post #538
tomohawk wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start a "consulting" business that provides really good pay and benefits to all of the workers. Be very selective about who you let in. You're now in the business of providing workers for companies that produce stuff. If they want access to your workers, they sign a contract with your company. If some workers don't like working for some particular company, transfer them to places where they like to work. You've now c…

My friend from Europe explained that this is how companies get around labor laws (for example, laws that restrict the number of hours a given employee can work). Companies essentially hire contractors who are paid higher wages which results in fewer actual positions hired by the company. Now there are fewer positions hired directly by the employer so in-effect, the labor laws haven't impacted much. At least that's ho…

I don't understand. What you're describing is individual contracting, no?

The comment above described contracting a company with employees. These employees would than drop be bound by the labor laws.

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