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Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

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Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#401
To make this discussion maybe a little bit more solution oriented, what would be your solution to problems of labor mistreatment? Or do you suggest that nothing like that exists?

I recently came across an interesting talk by Richard Wolff at Google [1] which suggests that a great solution would be the democratization of the work place in the form of worker coops. It’s actually a tried and true model that works well in a variety of contexts. It would probably solve the problem you outline as well as make labor mistreatment a lot less common.

1: https://youtube.com/watch?v=ynbgMKclWWc

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#402
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? Have you considered that the adversarial workplace is the reason for unionizing in the first place?

Or it's just a symptom of the Shirky Principle: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." Even if the workplace is not adversarial, any union will try to preserve the conditions that necessitate its continued existence. No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

Exactly this.

First job I ever had was in the financial industry but was part of a larger conglomerate in the media business. As such, we were forced into the union that the writers for the media company were all a part of. Its unusual to have a union is a "professional services" type role. Speaking first hand, I can tell you the union did absolutely nothing for us except collect a portion of our wages. They didn't care about us. Perhaps it was because we were the smaller/niche part of the larger business and their focus was on the writers that far outnumbered us. Or maybe they were just shitbags. But when it came time to discuss keeping the reps we had, I asked why we should keep them since there was no clear benefit. They basically admitted they did nothing for us by promising to make our unit a focus going forward. Uh huh. Well, an opportunity showed up where we got bought out by a competitor (purely in financial services) and we took that opportunity, as per the labor laws, to determine whether or not we wanted representation at the new entity. We voted them out by a wide margin with 80% in favor of getting rid of them. My salary increased after that, and substantially so in the years since (although I did leave soon after).

The NLRB really, really didn't want us to get rid of the union and tried hard to convince us to keep them, which is weird because that's not their role. The NLRB is just supposed to oversee the process to make sure the rules are being followed. Also, we were given a mere one day to file the petition - the day the new entity was legal. If we didn't do it that day, we'd have to wait an entire year to revisit the issue! One of the many reasons it's hard to get rid of parasitic organizations one they get their hooks in.

There really isn't a need in most cases to be unionized. The primary focus of unions was always working conditions and fair wages. Working conditions are light years beyond what they once were so unions have focused basically myopically on always fighting for higher wages and benefits. But the only time I think this is appropriate is in cases of similar, easily comparable work - meaning things that are usually "blue collar". It's hard to compare a lot of professional and "creative" jobs or the people filling those positions. I think people should be forced to negotiate for their own wages in most cases. Only simpler, lower-wage type work where people may not have the personality, skillset, and ability to negotiate for themselves as to avoid taking advantage of people makes sense to me.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#403
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you'd rather your friend be worked harder for his minimum wage? You'd rather he be liable for the things people steal from the store? You'd rather him be fired and be without medical insurance if he slips and falls at work? Unions are why your friend isn't worked to death while he waits for his teacher's certification.

Believe it or not, some people actually are willing to work harder for more money

The great lie is that the harder you work, the more money you make. Under a fully unregulated capitalism (no unions, no min wage) your wage is uncorrelated to the hardness of your work, it is correlated to your worth and scarcity on the market.

Sometimes harder workers are harder to find, so they get paid more. Sometimes they're not. If working harder simply led to more money, salary negotiation would not be a teachable skill.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#404

If Kickstarter can do it, the game industry can do it! Come on, game industry, it's your time to unionize!

It'll never happen so long as there are "gamers" who want to work in the industry they "love", unfortunately.

Part of the problem is it's too easy to just leave the industry altogether to get better working conditions, and then after a few years out you don't have the skills (or the willingness to be screwed over) to go back in.

The all too common path seems to be enter the industry for a few years, endure crap that none of your friends that do similar jobs outside of the industry endure for a lot less money, actually want to plan for the future at some point, then get a job outside of the industry, and even though you love games, you just can't go back to getting mistreated.

That was what I did, and lots of other coworkers I had, and is why the industry seems to have a huge dearth of senior talent.

So the people who would be most willing to unionize are no longer in the industry to do so.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#405

I wish them well, but having family members and friends work in unionized workplaces, it's not something I would ever do. It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing whenever I talk to them about where they work. Why would I ever work some place where things are so adversarial? You also end up with this 3rd party involved in everything, creating all kinds of "rules" to make things "fair". Want to…

> It always seems to degenerate into an "us vs them" sort of thing

It is "us vs them". They just apparently understand that a lot better than you.

> Don't care about the union's bullshit "industrial action" and just want to work and earn some money? Get used to being called a "scab".

If all that's happening is you get called a scab then count yourself lucky. That's a sign that things aren't that bad yet.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hollywood unions set wage and salary floors and generally focus on work-place conditions. Individuals are allowed to and encouraged to negotiate their salaries above that floor if they're talented enough to have the market power to do so. Programmer unions could copy the Hollywood model--salary floors, with no caps on salary negotiated by so-called "superstar" programmers.

I'm still paying Union dues for a floor I don't come near.

Unions also negotiate workplace conditions, like no unpaid on-call duty, guaranteed vacations, etc. Many talent-based unions also provide (optional) retirement funds or health benefits so that members aren't tied to a single employer solely for healthcare.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#408

The anti-union rhetoric in America is staggering. You like weekends? Then stop ragging on unions.

I have a friend who worked at a grocery store for a few months while waiting for his teacher's certification to get processed and sent to the state he'd moved to. It was a minimum-wage job, yet mandatory union membership at this grocery store chain meant that a cut of each of his minimum-wage paychecks was taken from him without anything he could do about it. The idea that unions are inherently, universally good is j…

> The idea that unions are inherently, universally good is just as silly as the idea that unions are inherently, universally bad.

This is something I think a lot of idealistically pro-union people don't understand, at least in the college/grad school circles I've discussed it with. The concept of a union is good, sure. But unions themselves are businesses, and it's their business to be needed and to convince people to join and pay dues.

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#409
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, his opponent was objectively unqualified for every conceivable post but had the opportunity to be elected president of the U.S. merely because of her husband's name. America's in a lot of trouble. 2020 is going to make 2016 look like Jefferson & Adams.

That's palpably false. She was the single most qualified candidate for President, from a policy viewpoint, the nation has ever had. It was dismissive nonsense like that comment, that was her biggest obstacle.

The "from a policy viewpoint" clause is doing a lot of work in that proposition. Was she more qualified than Washington? Jefferson? Eisenhower? Bush the Elder?

Re: Kickstarter’s staff is unionizing

#410
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or it's just a symptom of the Shirky Principle: "Institutions will try to preserve the problem to which they are the solution." Even if the workplace is not adversarial, any union will try to preserve the conditions that necessitate its continued existence. No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns."

> No union ever said "Wow, this new CEO and management are super fair and reasonable. We are no longer necessary, let's dissolve and let them take the reigns." What an odd point of view. Homicides are down; should we loosen the laws? If management are "fair and reasonable", what do they care if there's a union on premises? Everyone just goes about their business.

That's the wrong analogy - it's not about loosening the laws. It's about reducing the overhead/framework for something that is no longer as necessary.

It should be "homicides are down, should we reduce the number of cops and investigators?"

And the answer is probably yes. But of course we know that in practicality no municipality would say they are letting a bunch of cops go because crime is down. Even though they arguably should. Or at the very least, don't replace them as they retire and let the number naturally decrease. Because the number of people who will go out murdering people solely because there are less cops is near zero. That's not really a driving factor.

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