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Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

nytimes.com

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Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#121

Post by pjc50 »

wang_li wrote: post #94
ergothus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, a vast component of code is communicating to developers. Some patterns (e.g. Java) try to minimize the expressiveness in favor of consistency, others (e.g. Perl, etc) focus on expressiveness (which makes the subsequent result highly dependent on the skill of the _expression_ of the original programmer). But either way, there's distinctly language going on. It just conveys in a different manner than the commo…

I have a challenge for you, or anyone really. Translate Gettysburg Address into your programming language of choice and present it here for determining of those fluent in your chosen language understand what you have translated. Constraints: You can't use print statements to echo the English text of the address. You can't use English or English-like identifiers. I know of no programming language that can convey the m…

Reminds me of Peter Norvig's translation into PowerPoint: https://norvig.com/Gettysburg/

(satirizing its overuse and flattening of style)

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#122

Post by tengbretson »

citizenkeen wrote: post #112
sorenn111 wrote: post #101

It is clearly not a foreign language, but it might honestly be a better substitute for most students' time. In the US, a foreign language can be a great thing to learn, but with our failing math and science teachings, perhaps shifting towards CS instead might be a good idea for helping many high school kids prepare for a STEM dominated job market. From the article: "It stems from a widely held but mistaken belief tha…

It makes me sad how little we value education beyond gainful employment.

Do you think you were taught to value education beyond gainful employment? If so, by whom? If not, where did it come from?

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#123

Post by mjevans »

mywittyname wrote: post #66
Upvoter33 wrote: post #3

No, not any more than math or statistics are. Replacing a foreign language with a programming course is like replacing a music class with a math course; you may think it's a good idea, but it's not because it's replacing the same type of thing.

But how do we get law makers (or, more importantly, their constituents) to understand this? There's a huge push towards vocational education and parents thinks that "coding" is something their 10 year old can learn then apply to make buckets of money. Plus, you know, it's called a programming "language." If I personally had to chose between a foreign language course, or programming one as a learn-but-never-really-app…

Coding might be aiming too high.

A year of critical thinking and logical reasoning, how THAT is a general skill that can be applied everywhere.

I'm not sure a whole year would need to be filled with that though, those skills would also be better grounded in reality.

Combining those skills in to what used to be home ec (which I never had the opportunity to take) could be a good general life skills class.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#124

Post by karmakaze »

yellowapple wrote: post #111
karmakaze wrote: post #83

Quite interesting that the reason I didn't like Scala was that it was like a natural language. There was interacting context that wasn't immediately visible at the use site. I wonder if linguists or Perl lovers like Scala more than others?

Being a Perl lover, I wonder if I should actually take a look at Scala? I've always been turned off it (and Clojure) because I don't care for the JVM, but maybe a good enough language can make dealing with the JVM tolerable? I do already like Groovy (and have been using it for my day job, since it's one of the scripting options for Dell Boomi), so it wouldn't be the first case I've encountered of "I don't like the JV…

The type signatures that look like line noise might be a turn off coming from scripting langs unless you appreciate static expressiveness.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#125

Post by morpheuskafka »

Who on Earth came up with calling computer science a forward language? By that logic, so is symbolic mathematics and logic, chemical equations, etc. Programming languages (more so some than others) have a lot in common with advanced math (ex lambda calculus) and almost nothing in common with foreign languages... not that both should not be taught.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#126

Post by nevertoolate »

tengbretson wrote: post #122
citizenkeen wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad how little we value education beyond gainful employment.

Do you think you were taught to value education beyond gainful employment? If so, by whom? If not, where did it come from?

Yes. All my teachers and my family. Life is not slavery.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#127

Post by TimTheTinker »

tengbretson wrote: post #122
citizenkeen wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad how little we value education beyond gainful employment.

Do you think you were taught to value education beyond gainful employment? If so, by whom? If not, where did it come from?

I think parents and other family members are the ones who most often effectively instill a love of learning in kids, followed by middle and high school teachers, followed by college professors/lecturers.

Information can be transmitted by almost anyone, but a deep love of something can only be instilled through a personal relationship of mutual respect and trust.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#128

Post by vntok »

wang_li wrote: post #94
ergothus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, a vast component of code is communicating to developers. Some patterns (e.g. Java) try to minimize the expressiveness in favor of consistency, others (e.g. Perl, etc) focus on expressiveness (which makes the subsequent result highly dependent on the skill of the _expression_ of the original programmer). But either way, there's distinctly language going on. It just conveys in a different manner than the commo…

I have a challenge for you, or anyone really. Translate Gettysburg Address into your programming language of choice and present it here for determining of those fluent in your chosen language understand what you have translated. Constraints: You can't use print statements to echo the English text of the address. You can't use English or English-like identifiers. I know of no programming language that can convey the m…

> But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate—we can not consecrate—we can not hallow—this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract.

Sounds like some "brave" developers defined a "Ground" class (maybe they "struggled" over its name?) that they "consecrated" by marking it as final, so that other developers shall not extend it later to "add or detract" from its original purpose.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#129

Post by teunispeters »

jtuente wrote: post #74
teunispeters wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no Code also contains the perspectives of the native language the coding system was written from - which for most code languages is English (and all too often USA centric). This may have indirect consequences, eg handling of date/time or spacial measurements or direct in terms of how code itself is organized. (the naming of functions has bias for instance - it directs the reader's attention towards assumption…

Just check out this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_... Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6315913

Some of those are just "translations on top of" which keep the metaphorical constructs in place. A lot though ... very interesting.

Thank you!

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#130

Post by xg15 »

sorenn111 wrote: post #101

It is clearly not a foreign language, but it might honestly be a better substitute for most students' time. In the US, a foreign language can be a great thing to learn, but with our failing math and science teachings, perhaps shifting towards CS instead might be a good idea for helping many high school kids prepare for a STEM dominated job market. From the article: "It stems from a widely held but mistaken belief tha…

How about wanting to, I don't know, travel to and work in foreign countries one day?
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