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Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

nytimes.com

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Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#111

Post by yellowapple »

karmakaze wrote: post #83

Quite interesting that the reason I didn't like Scala was that it was like a natural language. There was interacting context that wasn't immediately visible at the use site. I wonder if linguists or Perl lovers like Scala more than others?

Being a Perl lover, I wonder if I should actually take a look at Scala? I've always been turned off it (and Clojure) because I don't care for the JVM, but maybe a good enough language can make dealing with the JVM tolerable?

I do already like Groovy (and have been using it for my day job, since it's one of the scripting options for Dell Boomi), so it wouldn't be the first case I've encountered of "I don't like the JVM, but this language makes it worthwhile".

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#112

Post by citizenkeen »

sorenn111 wrote: post #101

It is clearly not a foreign language, but it might honestly be a better substitute for most students' time. In the US, a foreign language can be a great thing to learn, but with our failing math and science teachings, perhaps shifting towards CS instead might be a good idea for helping many high school kids prepare for a STEM dominated job market. From the article: "It stems from a widely held but mistaken belief tha…

It makes me sad how little we value education beyond gainful employment.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#113

Post by andrewflnr »

wang_li wrote: post #94
ergothus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, a vast component of code is communicating to developers. Some patterns (e.g. Java) try to minimize the expressiveness in favor of consistency, others (e.g. Perl, etc) focus on expressiveness (which makes the subsequent result highly dependent on the skill of the _expression_ of the original programmer). But either way, there's distinctly language going on. It just conveys in a different manner than the commo…

I have a challenge for you, or anyone really. Translate Gettysburg Address into your programming language of choice and present it here for determining of those fluent in your chosen language understand what you have translated. Constraints: You can't use print statements to echo the English text of the address. You can't use English or English-like identifiers. I know of no programming language that can convey the m…

> it's simply not what the languages are meant to do

I'd say you answered your own question, here.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#114

Post by givehimagun »

sorenn111 wrote: post #101

It is clearly not a foreign language, but it might honestly be a better substitute for most students' time. In the US, a foreign language can be a great thing to learn, but with our failing math and science teachings, perhaps shifting towards CS instead might be a good idea for helping many high school kids prepare for a STEM dominated job market. From the article: "It stems from a widely held but mistaken belief tha…

I'm just exploring an idea here but I wonder if the point is that practicing language skills (writing, reading, presenting) are as important as practicing technical skills (computer science, chemistry, math). I might argue that in the business world, we call those language skills soft skills and that they are VERY important in the success of software developers. A great developer who can't communicate or express their ideas thoughtfully struggles more than a less technically inclined developer who communicates more effectively.

One of my favorite interactions to see is when my developers have a thoughtful conversation on a pull request and come up with a creative solution together using a combination of their language and technical skills. Maybe we need people to do both?

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#115

Post by B-Con »

citizenkeen wrote: post #112
sorenn111 wrote: post #101

It is clearly not a foreign language, but it might honestly be a better substitute for most students' time. In the US, a foreign language can be a great thing to learn, but with our failing math and science teachings, perhaps shifting towards CS instead might be a good idea for helping many high school kids prepare for a STEM dominated job market. From the article: "It stems from a widely held but mistaken belief tha…

It makes me sad how little we value education beyond gainful employment.

The fine arts are great, after you've put food on the table and a roof over your head. Most people are much happier to have stable employment than esoteric knowledge. The economy and society are better for it too.

School's primary purpose is to prepare people to be functioning members of society.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#116

Post by Jtsummers »

B-Con wrote: post #115
citizenkeen wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad how little we value education beyond gainful employment.

The fine arts are great, after you've put food on the table and a roof over your head. Most people are much happier to have stable employment than esoteric knowledge. The economy and society are better for it too. School's primary purpose is to prepare people to be functioning members of society.

Define "functioning"?

I can prepare almost anyone to be a functioning member of society so long as you don't want them to be capable of thought or creativity. They won't be a functioning member (or a well-functioning member) of a society ruled by a democratic system of government, though.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#117

Post by ilovecaching »

Computer science should literally be the #1 most import subject in schools. Not only is the public's ignorance of technology exceedingly dangerous, it's also the only skill that could net you have 100k+ salary right out of high school. Computer science is also the study of solving problems. If you teach kids how to be good computer scientists, they are going to naturally progress in every other field of study.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#118

Post by PJDK »

wang_li wrote: post #94
ergothus wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, a vast component of code is communicating to developers. Some patterns (e.g. Java) try to minimize the expressiveness in favor of consistency, others (e.g. Perl, etc) focus on expressiveness (which makes the subsequent result highly dependent on the skill of the _expression_ of the original programmer). But either way, there's distinctly language going on. It just conveys in a different manner than the commo…

I have a challenge for you, or anyone really. Translate Gettysburg Address into your programming language of choice and present it here for determining of those fluent in your chosen language understand what you have translated. Constraints: You can't use print statements to echo the English text of the address. You can't use English or English-like identifiers. I know of no programming language that can convey the m…

in c# (partial code)

  using(var usPeoples = new UsPeopleContext())
  {
     var waverers = usPeoples.Where(x => x.IsUnsureOfContextOfCivilWarAndReasonsToPersue == false).ToList();   
     waverers.ForEach(x =>
     {  
        x.Reassure();
        x.Inspire();
     });
     await usPeoples.SaveChangesAsync();
  }

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#119

Post by lordnacho »

jandrese wrote: post #75
influxed wrote: post #13

My experience with written/spoken languages vs programming languages has been vastly different. In my early 20s I picked up enough Spanish working in a restaurant to have conversations about simple topics/small talk, including native speakers at family dinners. Not much effort. In my late 20s using Anki (SRS) I learned enough Russian to mostly understand radio broadcasts and television, but I never practiced speaking…

It shouldn't be a surprise why programming languages are easier to learn. The grammer is highly regular and the vocabulary is absolutely tiny. Even complex computer languages are toys compared to any spoken language. Plus with computer languages you have a machine that can tell you if you're doing it right at your beck and call all day long. No need to bother a real life person to practice.

Plus computer code is always in Latin/English script.

Even if you just study a Western European language you'll end up with extra characters. A bit further afield and you end up with alternative alphabets or for example Chinese characters.

Re: Code is not a foreign language, and high schools shouldn't treat it that way

#120

Post by holy_city »

B-Con wrote: post #115
citizenkeen wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me sad how little we value education beyond gainful employment.

The fine arts are great, after you've put food on the table and a roof over your head. Most people are much happier to have stable employment than esoteric knowledge. The economy and society are better for it too. School's primary purpose is to prepare people to be functioning members of society.

It's sad that people equate employment to being "functioning members of society." Your job is just one thing you do in society.

Education is about teaching children how to think, communicate, and act as much as giving them specific tools for future careers. Never mind the plethora of studies that have found links between arts education and performance in other educational/vocational areas. It's hardly esoteric.

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