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Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

bbc.com

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Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#81

Post by jedmeyers »

purpleidea wrote: post #40

I'm a physiologist, and definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer. Two points: 1) What is the specific list of immunizations that are being mandated? 2) If immunizations are to be mandated, great, however the companies that produce them must also be mandated to be transparent in their research and development. For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. T…

I agree. There are currently a lot of problems with vaccine development transparency and the chain of custody in handling of the vaccines is non existent. Yet someone is paying for this major social media propaganda push that anti-vaxxers are all low IQ deplorables who kill their own children. In parallel the fact that everyone should be forced to be vaccinated regardless of any other concerns is pushed as a sane rhetoric. Next thing they will be saying is that government conducting experiments on people (like the Tuskegee Study) never happened and it’s all just conspiracy theories.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#83

Post by [deleted] »

RandomTisk wrote: post #67
purpleidea wrote: post #40

I'm a physiologist, and definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer. Two points: 1) What is the specific list of immunizations that are being mandated? 2) If immunizations are to be mandated, great, however the companies that produce them must also be mandated to be transparent in their research and development. For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. T…

Me either, but I've always wondered: 3) What danger do un-vaccinated children pose to vaccinated ones?

[deleted]

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#84

Post by ghaff »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #64

In the USA, we have the idea of "informed consent" with regards to medical treatments. The ideal standard is that the doctor tells you what you have, and what ways there are to treat/manage it. Doing nothing is also an answer. Vaccines are no different: some vaccines have some rather nasty side effects. Except in this country, under 42 U.S. Code § 300aa–22, "No vaccine manufacturer shall be liable in a civil action f…

Because ultimately it doesn't matter if they don't want their child to get vaccinated because they've determined the personal risk isn't worth the societal reward or because they think vaccines will steal their kid's soul. The result is the same.

Doing nothing is an option even in a state like California. (As it should probably be.) The child just can't attend school (absent a medical exemption).

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#85

Post by alexandercrohde »

jedmeyers wrote: post #81
purpleidea wrote: post #40

I'm a physiologist, and definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer. Two points: 1) What is the specific list of immunizations that are being mandated? 2) If immunizations are to be mandated, great, however the companies that produce them must also be mandated to be transparent in their research and development. For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. T…

I agree. There are currently a lot of problems with vaccine development transparency and the chain of custody in handling of the vaccines is non existent. Yet someone is paying for this major social media propaganda push that anti-vaxxers are all low IQ deplorables who kill their own children. In parallel the fact that everyone should be forced to be vaccinated regardless of any other concerns is pushed as a sane rhe…

I don't know that it's paid for right now (though it could be, there is a huge financial upside). Do you have anything concrete for that assessment (as opposed to just angry/bored people on the internet looking for something to get mad about?) ?

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#86

Post by StevePerkins »

zug_zug wrote: post #45

I find it interesting and also confusing how invested random people on the internet are about the outcome of vaccination (which could theoretically cause an issue for a small percentage of the population), as opposed to say climate-denial (which will undisputably cause a much bigger issue for the entire population)

I'm not saying it isn't a legitimate, serious issue. But the echo/amplification effect in some corners (i.e. primarily Reddit and HN) is really fascinating. Kind of a "I feel strongly about a thing, because so many people I interact with feel strongly about the thing" sort of thing.

Of all the worthy issues out there today, I'm not sure why Reddit and HN has fixated on this particular one to the extent that they have. But I'm fairly sure that validation-reward effect helps to ratchet up the intensity. You tend to receive a lot votes, likes, etc for commenting in agreement, and I suspect that feedback loop has an impact.

Once again, not speaking in opposition here (God forbid! Pitchforks down!). It's just interesting to watch classic "flash mob" and "moral panic" cycles play out in the new medium.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#87

Post by josephv »

RandomTisk wrote: post #67
purpleidea wrote: post #40

I'm a physiologist, and definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer. Two points: 1) What is the specific list of immunizations that are being mandated? 2) If immunizations are to be mandated, great, however the companies that produce them must also be mandated to be transparent in their research and development. For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. T…

Me either, but I've always wondered: 3) What danger do un-vaccinated children pose to vaccinated ones?

Vaccination doesn't 100% guarantee immunity, so there is always a % that isn't immune. Each disease requires a different % immunity to prevent a wide-spread outbreak, i.e. to provide herd immunity. For particularly aggressive diseases it requires 95ish% immunity to avoid an outbreak.

So with anti-vaxxers increasing from roughly .5% to 1.5% over the last 10 years or so, that introduces a significant increase in the requirement of vaccination effectiveness, to the point where you wonder are we close to herd immunity breaking down.

In places with significant anti-vax sentiments, such as ultra-orthodox religious practices you will get those larger outbreaks of things like measles.

In general I think research indicates in the general populous anti-vaxxer populations are still small and disparate enough as to not impact herd immunity, but the trend has been upward due to the anti-vax trend over the last decade.

[source] am married to an M.D. that specialized in microbiology, recently listened to a good NPR bit about it that dropped the statistics, and I stayed at a holiday inn express last night.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#88

Post by majewsky »

tw04 wrote: post #77
purpleidea wrote: post #40

I'm a physiologist, and definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer. Two points: 1) What is the specific list of immunizations that are being mandated? 2) If immunizations are to be mandated, great, however the companies that produce them must also be mandated to be transparent in their research and development. For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. T…

>For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. That's currently not required, they're allowed to cherry-pick results! Why? The alternatives in pretty much all cases are death. Which side effect is better than your child being dead? Or mine for that matter because the collective you (not you personally) decided that risking polio was better than…

> Which side effect is better than your child being dead?

This is a very simplistic view given the probabilities involved. For a drastic example, consider a hypothetical treatment that can perfectly prevent a disease that would otherwise kill 1% of those who are treated, but it will blind 100% of them. It's hard to argue that this is a better outcome.

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#89

Post by alexandercrohde »

kalleboo wrote: post #36
jarmitage wrote: post #13

I would be interested to know if any Italians (or otherwise knowledgable people) are here who can comment on this anecdote: I once stayed with some Italians near Pisa, who were home schooling their children. They said that corrupt and ignorant politicians have added unnecessary vaccines to the list of requirements, due to lobbying/collusion with pharma companies and as a way to influence elections. As a result, some…

> They said that corrupt and ignorant politicians have added unnecessary vaccines to the list of requirements, due to lobbying/collusion with pharma companies FWIW, This is standard anti-vaxxer rhetoric in any country. You see stuff like this anywhere: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeS7VhVWsAABZOJ.jpg

When you say "rhetoric" do you mean it is not true then?

Re: Italy bans unvaccinated children from school

#90

Post by bryanlarsen »

jedmeyers wrote: post #81
purpleidea wrote: post #40

I'm a physiologist, and definitely NOT an anti-vaxxer. Two points: 1) What is the specific list of immunizations that are being mandated? 2) If immunizations are to be mandated, great, however the companies that produce them must also be mandated to be transparent in their research and development. For example, they must be required by law to publish all studies on drug safety-- both positive, and negative results. T…

I agree. There are currently a lot of problems with vaccine development transparency and the chain of custody in handling of the vaccines is non existent. Yet someone is paying for this major social media propaganda push that anti-vaxxers are all low IQ deplorables who kill their own children. In parallel the fact that everyone should be forced to be vaccinated regardless of any other concerns is pushed as a sane rhe…

"Yet someone is paying for this major social media propaganda push that anti-vaxxers are all low IQ deplorables who kill their own children."

Why would people be paying for this? There are probably millions of people out there who would be willing to say something similar without payment.

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