To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars • Hacker News Board

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#111

Post by usaar333 » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

educationdata wrote: post #98

betandr wrote: post #71

We really do have to radically re-think our cities but the biggest issues aren't going to be practical but emotional. In London parents drive their children around in 4x4s, knowing that their vehicle causes the pollution that is affecting their own children's health. I'm not sure how you even start to get around that but to some extent you will never persuade everybody to reduce their damaging behaviour. You need to…

No. Car is not just the "culture", car serves our need. If you are young without kids, it may not make much difference for you to ride a car, or take a bus, or a train, subway, etc. But if you have a family, it makes a huge pain without your own vehicle. If the city of future requires families to abandon their own vehicle, it is not the correct city of future. Just design a better one.

Where does the difficulty lie? I lived in SF fine with a toddler, taking public transit to local places.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#112

Post by danielecook » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:35 PM UTC

betandr wrote: post #71

We really do have to radically re-think our cities but the biggest issues aren't going to be practical but emotional. In London parents drive their children around in 4x4s, knowing that their vehicle causes the pollution that is affecting their own children's health. I'm not sure how you even start to get around that but to some extent you will never persuade everybody to reduce their damaging behaviour. You need to…

Having recently moved to London I am a bit shocked at how poor the cycling infrastructure is. Granted, the city was never exactly planned out, but it seems to me it wouldn’t be hard to add dedicated bike paths given the fair amount of green space. Consider richmond Park as a prime location where dedicated bike-only lanes would be a great improvement. Instead you must bike along side diesel fumes on the roads that should be removed imo.

What are the primary obstacles towards improving the cycling infrastructure here?

By the way - biking here is quite different from the US. Unlike the US, I can taste the pollution. It’s a much heavier thing. Perhaps I’m not used to it, but I often find myself holding my breath to get through fumes.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#113

Post by GVIrish » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

SupremeOverlord wrote: post #99

dkural wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is an extreme precisely due to these social and emotional reasons. It's shocking to me how this article fails to mention even once that a lot of post WWII suburbanization was due to white flight. The article states: "Millions of soldiers had come home from World War II to overcrowded, run-down cities; their new families needed a place to live." "Overcrowded, run-down": who all of a sudden "overcrowded" these c…

>white flight People have a right to choose their neighbor(hood)s. Freedom of association ought to imply freedom of disassociation. Stats show neighborhood crime correlates much more strongly with race than with education or income/poverty level. It's telling that diversity has to be enforced by government force...

And those same black neighborhoods had redlining, deliberately starved infrastructure and public services, and bad policing to contend with. Not to mention that black GI's were deliberately cheated out of the GI Bill that created so much upward mobility for returning white soldiers.

> It's telling that diversity has to be enforced by government force

Do you really not understand the history of segregation in the United States? Again, segregation meant black public schools were getting deliberately starved of resources as yet another facet of institutional racism.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#114

Post by bsanr2 » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

SupremeOverlord wrote: post #99

dkural wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is an extreme precisely due to these social and emotional reasons. It's shocking to me how this article fails to mention even once that a lot of post WWII suburbanization was due to white flight. The article states: "Millions of soldiers had come home from World War II to overcrowded, run-down cities; their new families needed a place to live." "Overcrowded, run-down": who all of a sudden "overcrowded" these c…

>white flight People have a right to choose their neighbor(hood)s. Freedom of association ought to imply freedom of disassociation. Stats show neighborhood crime correlates much more strongly with race than with education or income/poverty level. It's telling that diversity has to be enforced by government force...

"Much more strongly" is an overstatement, and this thesis doesn't take into account the multiplicative (not linear) effects of discrimination - in all its institutional and informal forms - and poverty. Crime in Japan tracks more closely with Buraku heritage than with income, and they are genetically indistinguishable from the rest of the population. This is a social problem with a social solution, that racist mid-century urban planners and policymakers made phenomenally worse by encouraging white flight.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#115

Post by adrianN » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

educationdata wrote: post #98

betandr wrote: post #71

We really do have to radically re-think our cities but the biggest issues aren't going to be practical but emotional. In London parents drive their children around in 4x4s, knowing that their vehicle causes the pollution that is affecting their own children's health. I'm not sure how you even start to get around that but to some extent you will never persuade everybody to reduce their damaging behaviour. You need to…

No. Car is not just the "culture", car serves our need. If you are young without kids, it may not make much difference for you to ride a car, or take a bus, or a train, subway, etc. But if you have a family, it makes a huge pain without your own vehicle. If the city of future requires families to abandon their own vehicle, it is not the correct city of future. Just design a better one.

Many families in European cities live just fine without a car. My family never had a car and it wasn't "a huge pain".

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#116

Post by impostir » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

lazyjones wrote: post #24

Improving life in cities is a matter of fixing existing problems, like poor public transport and pollution from combustion engines and heating. Building a "feel good" fantasy around the hatred of cars isn't going to improve anything, it'll just replace the current best choice for individual transport with something inferior, as well as destroy the economy (which depends on roads for logistics and public services).

I do not hate cars; what I hate is the fact that America is built around the car, not a person. For significant portions of the American population, you must have access to car to survive. That is the problem that I hate, not the simple existence of a car

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#117

Post by jpindar » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

ptero wrote: post #19

mtberatwork wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the US went to the other extreme and is only slowly turning around. US car manufacturers are doubling down on large trucks and SUVs and the current administration continues to thwart progress on tackling climate change and other societal concerns. I would say the US, at least on a macro level, is still on the "other extreme" path.

> US car manufacturers are doubling down on large trucks and SUVs Manufacturers are building lots of SUVs because this is what people in the US prefer to buy. If manufacturers build tons of subcompacts instead they would have to drop prices and probably sell those subcompacts at a loss. If you wanted to sell more small cars instead you should convince consumers to buy them (e.g., via end user incentives), which would…

I know several people who, like myself, used to drive small pickups and now drive midsize ones. We would prefer to drive small ones, but they don't make them anymore.

Among people who are willing to restore old vehicles, some small trucks are becoming classics.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#118

Post by adrianN » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

SupremeOverlord wrote: post #104

betandr wrote: post #71

We really do have to radically re-think our cities but the biggest issues aren't going to be practical but emotional. In London parents drive their children around in 4x4s, knowing that their vehicle causes the pollution that is affecting their own children's health. I'm not sure how you even start to get around that but to some extent you will never persuade everybody to reduce their damaging behaviour. You need to…

>We really do have to radically re-think our cities Yes we do, but the solution isn't less lanes, more public transit, and more bike paths. The solution is double to sextuple decker streets with matching parking. The solution is to make cities even more car friendly. Not everybody has the luxury of being physically fit enough to bike, or so time-loose to tolerate the inefficiencies of public transit!

Not everyone has the luxury of being able to drive a car or having the money for a car.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#119

Post by ngngngng » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

I'm not sure these articles are good for my mental health. I live in Utah Valley, which has the worst air quality in the United States. I'm on the train right now as I type this, it takes twice as long for me to get to work this way but i'm trying to increase train usage. People here are just so invested in making their hour long commutes with their gigantic trucks. Trucks are ridiculously expensive even before you factor in the prohibitive cost of gas and maintenance for them. It still doesn't seem to dissuade anyone.

I'm considering protesting for more environmentally friendly city designs and transportation decisions. I could find an extremely congested intersection and protest by just pressing the walk sign and marching back and forth. Annoying, but probably effective at getting my message seen. I imagine that's the kind of protest that would get me arrested for being a nuisance.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#120

Post by francisofascii » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

RickJWagner wrote: post #11

mtberatwork wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the US went to the other extreme and is only slowly turning around. US car manufacturers are doubling down on large trucks and SUVs and the current administration continues to thwart progress on tackling climate change and other societal concerns. I would say the US, at least on a macro level, is still on the "other extreme" path.

I don't believe there is a nefarious scheme in play. People who live in cities don't need cars. People who live outside cities still need cars. The manufacturers try to fill that need. The manufacturers, sellers, etc. make the economy go 'round. It will all change if/when economic forces bring it about. Directly forcing it through politics probably isn't the right approach.

> It will all change if/when economic forces bring it about.

I agree, but I also think political policy decisions created the rules of the market, which in the case of the US, incentivized individual car ownsership. For example, creating a highway or creating a bus only lane, are political decisions that directly affect the market forces.