To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars • Hacker News Board

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#61

Post by linuxftw » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 1:57 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #40

Cars are not the cause of the issue with cities, cars are symptom of bad zoning and regulation which more times than not prevents owners of property from doing what they want. when every new building requires effectively bring special interest groups, politicians, regulatory boards, and unions, their due is it a surprise cities are not getting better. they are serving a politically connected elite, not the people who…

I agree. Cars are a solution to a (set of) problem. Remove the problem(s), remove the cars.

Cars, also, not really that big of a problem in themselves. Commuting is the problem. This is a symptom of depressed wages; people are willing to spend extra time (commute) in place of extra money (rent).

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#62

Post by LoSboccacc » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

buro9 wrote: post #52

LoSboccacc wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

population: 600k not exactly a challenge now is it. the dynamics for cities with 6 million inhabitants are on a whole different scale because while building can pack people in three dimension transit has relatively few 2d planes to be built upon.

San Francisco at 884k isn't that far ahead of Copenhagen at 602k, but yet the difference is very clear.

yeah, nothing to do with the bay area being littered with large cities and population number being cut by municipalities. are we playing special cases here?

Vatican City with population 1000 should be Eden then.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#63

Post by ocdtrekkie » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 1:58 PM UTC

This is one of the reasons the self-driving craze in tech is so silly: We have vehicles you can commute in and not drive called public transit. Self-driving cars is desire for public transit that doesn't have your rich self sitting next to a poor person on the way to work.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#64

Post by rfrey » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

bpyne wrote: post #46

mtberatwork wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the US went to the other extreme and is only slowly turning around. US car manufacturers are doubling down on large trucks and SUVs and the current administration continues to thwart progress on tackling climate change and other societal concerns. I would say the US, at least on a macro level, is still on the "other extreme" path.

I'm curious to see how it plays out with the 20-somethings in the US. They've been brought up on more civic-mindedness and their trend is back to urban areas for living. They'll be a better bellweather.

I’m not sure 20-somethings are more civic minded. They voted in the last election at participation rates consistent with the last 40 years for that age group. Participation rates will probably increase as they age. Unfortunately priorities tend to change as people age too.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#65

Post by falcolas » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #40

Cars are not the cause of the issue with cities, cars are symptom of bad zoning and regulation which more times than not prevents owners of property from doing what they want. when every new building requires effectively bring special interest groups, politicians, regulatory boards, and unions, their due is it a surprise cities are not getting better. they are serving a politically connected elite, not the people who…

> prevents owners of property from doing what they want

As someone who has, in the past, been a neighbor to an unofficial junkyard (unzoned land), and as a person who currently only has houses for neighbors (zoned) thank god people can't do whatever they want.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#66

Post by benj111 » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 1:59 PM UTC

LoSboccacc wrote: post #49

benj111 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think its a hatred of cars. Its just cars are so entrenched in western cultures that its easy to overlook all the problems. All those things you cited are all exacerbated by the car. Electric cars will solve the pollution issue, but they are still cars, with all the issues they bring.

those utopia still haven't solve some basic problems: if one looks for work accessible to his housing without cars and relying only to transit, he'll be disadvantaged on the marked compared to one with a car that can choose his working environment freely. "but one can just relocate near the new job!" - yes, if you are a single income family, otherwise the partner has to change job too (and even then changing school t…

I didn't mention utopia.

I did say "Its just cars are so entrenched in western cultures that its easy to overlook all the problems" Eg in a society dominated by cars, there are going to be people without cars that can't easily get to work. You didn't have that problem pre car, and no one complains about not being able to get to work easily because they don't have a helicopter. Cars create sprawl, and create a situation where you need a car.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#67

Post by wozniacki » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:01 PM UTC

mtberatwork wrote: post #9

Tepix wrote: post #2

Not exactly rocket science. Many cities around the world have figured it out already. To me it seems that the US went to the other extreme and is only slowly turning around. I remember reading "Das neue Universum"² in the early 80s where they proposed large skyscrapers connected by tubes. No cars in sight. Oh and don't miss "Das Neue Universum Volume 84 (1967)": http://klausbuergle.de/buergle_verkehr1.htm - Click on…

> the US went to the other extreme and is only slowly turning around. US car manufacturers are doubling down on large trucks and SUVs and the current administration continues to thwart progress on tackling climate change and other societal concerns. I would say the US, at least on a macro level, is still on the "other extreme" path.

And yet not a pip when the new governor of California, Gavin Newsom announced that the high speed rail projects there will be scaled back, markedly.[1] [2] Between Los Angeles and San Francisco, no less !

Atleast not from these pro high-density living and pro urban transit folks. I don't get how you pick and choose what you'd like to criticize and what you'd like to champion on one side and what you conveniently ignore when it suits you, on the other.

I'm sure we can all agree that the LA-SF corridor could badly use a high speed rail line to alleviate the traffic on the I-5, right?

[1]

Gov. Newsom Puts Brakes On California’s High-Speed Rail Plan

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/02/12/gavin-newsom-br...

[2]

California's Newsom Scales Back Plans for High-Speed Rail Line

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-12/californi...

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#68

Post by randomdata » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

adwww wrote: post #41

bitxbit wrote: post #31

I’d argue that cities will shrink over time. It’s going to become easier for people to live in rural areas. I don’t think there is some magic formula to manage the inevitable congestion (not just traffic). Edit: It’d also be interesting to see the environmental impact of mega cities. And what about cities like Portland where they have put in a lot effort to plan around growth? Is it working?

It's not happening though. My parents live in a beautiful part of the rural UK and have super-fast fibre to the premises internet, next day Amazon prime available, online food shopping from 4 or so supermarkets locally, etc. Basically everything you'd think you'd need to live away from the city, but still the area is depopulating rapidly. Younger people don't want a life of car dependancy and social isolation.

It seems to be happening in Canada. The latest official population figures are, unfortunately, from way back in 2016, however at that time the numbers showed that communities with more than 100,000 people were already losing share of population. If we can use home sales data (activity and price) as a proxy for where people are living more recently, there has been a sharp decline in Canada's cities in the last year. At the same time, predominately rural areas have seen a huge spike. This suggests that the trend that was already becoming visible in 2016 has only accelerated.

It is not like whole cities have decided to leave overnight, but there is a noticeable shift going on.

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#69

Post by syshum » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #63

This is one of the reasons the self-driving craze in tech is so silly: We have vehicles you can commute in and not drive called public transit. Self-driving cars is desire for public transit that doesn't have your rich self sitting next to a poor person on the way to work.

Or you know people that value their time...

For me to use Public Transport here would increase my commute time to work by order of magnitude, not to mention all the places I go weekly that is not on a public transit stop or would require multiple line hops and be many times more time consuming than if I just drove directly their in my own personal vehicle

Public transport only works in area with High Population Density

Re: To build the cities of the future, we must get out of our cars

#70

Post by bitxbit » Mon, Mar 18, 2019, 2:02 PM UTC

wefarrell wrote: post #48

bitxbit wrote: post #31

I’d argue that cities will shrink over time. It’s going to become easier for people to live in rural areas. I don’t think there is some magic formula to manage the inevitable congestion (not just traffic). Edit: It’d also be interesting to see the environmental impact of mega cities. And what about cities like Portland where they have put in a lot effort to plan around growth? Is it working?

I thought the same thing when the internet was emerging but the opposite happened. The problem with your prediction is that it will also become easier to live in cities. AV's will reduce the need in cities for land allocated to parking. I can see this first hand in my neighborhood in Queens. It's becoming far easier to live without a car and population density is increasing at a rapid rate.

All valid points. I understand because I lived in NYC for most of my life but it’s become really congested in the past decade. Sure, there are still conveniences of living in Manhattan but some of that can now be experienced in smaller cities. My main argument is that it’s physically impossible to solve the extreme density problem. People still need to go to work during the day and eat around the same time, etc.