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Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

theatlantic.com

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Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#81

Post by enraged_camel »

patricklorio wrote: post #23
tapland wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need single payer because you can overcharge anyone who can't negotiate lower rates (i.e. individuals who's personal business with the healthcare system doesn't have much if any effect on it). Compare that to a state bargaining on behalf of 10+ million customers.

I'm not sure the government can do a good job negotiating on behalf of its citizens. It doesn't work well for student loans (blind checks that increases tuition) [1], California's power cost (rate set with gov cooperation) [2], or even Medicare [3]. I think we need to fix several more issues before single payer would be a suitable option. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/02/22/how-u... [2] http://…

>>I'm not sure the government can do a good job negotiating on behalf of its citizens.

Of course it can. For examples, please see: Medicare, Veterans Affairs, etc.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#82

Post by raesene9 »

rayiner wrote: post #71

I think we should have universal healthcare, but I don’t know how I feel about the “medical bankruptcy” angle. It strikes a chord with the middle/upper middle class readers of the Atlantic because those people fear losing their financial status. But to me, protecting the financial status of middle class people seems like a particularly poor justification for universal health care. Why should the government use tax do…

Isn't the best idea to make healthcare affordable/free at point of use for everyone (rich or poor) with the rich contributing more (through taxes) to subsidise the poor.

That way no-one gets into medical bankruptcy :)

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#83

Post by raesene9 »

morningmoon wrote: post #76

- 65% of Americans don't save, despite most having the ability to do so. 1 in 3 have less than $5,000 saved for retirement! It's a massive cultural problem. [1] - Most Americans live unhealthy lifestyles that contribute to $1.5 trillion in estimated healthcare costs from preventable disease. 1 in 3 Americans have pre-diabetes and 2 in 3 Americans are overweight. 1 in 3 Americans are obese. Again, a cultural problem.…

isn't taxation, in this case, a type of government enforced savings :)

So the gov. could force people to essentially provide for a level of healthcare for everyone.

Also on the Obesity point, if the UK was a US state we would rate somewhere in the middle of the pack on obesity levels.

Yet the UK pays far less per capita on healthcare and provides a basic level of healthcare free at point of use (rich people are free to increase that if they want)

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#84

Post by lisper »

leib wrote: post #73
lisper wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You weren't paying for the glue and the five minutes. You were paying for the overhead of maintaining all the other stuff that was there that you might have needed under different circumstances but happened not to need that day.

If that overhead cost was required the insurance company wouldn't have been able to negotiate it down

You could make the same argument for any discount offered by any company to anyone at any time.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#85

Post by foobandit »

lisper wrote: post #36
enraged_camel wrote: post #2

I accidentally stabbed myself in the finger while cutting open a package using a knife. Stupid, I know. The would was small, maybe 1 centimeter, but deep enough that it wouldn't stop bleeding on its own. My girlfriend insisted we go to the ER (urgent cares around here are closed on Sundays), so we did. I was the only one there that day. I was ushered in to see a doctor. The doctor looked at the wound, and said, "this…

You weren't paying for the glue and the five minutes. You were paying for the overhead of maintaining all the other stuff that was there that you might have needed under different circumstances but happened not to need that day.

It's more that they paid to cover the costs of all of the other emergency room patients that never paid their bills.

No one actually pays the sticker price anyway, that's an artifact of the strange ways that medical billing works. People that pay in cash (rather than insurance) are given large discounts.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#86

Post by lisper »

yongjik wrote: post #72
lisper wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You weren't paying for the glue and the five minutes. You were paying for the overhead of maintaining all the other stuff that was there that you might have needed under different circumstances but happened not to need that day.

While that's true, that's also true for all other countries where hospitals don't bill you $2,600 for glue and five minutes. So now the question merely shifts to why America needs that much money for stocking supplies and keeping doctors sitting at hospital.

Good point. There are three additional items that U.S. hospitals have to pay for that non-US hospitals don't (or that they have to pay a lot more for):

1. Malpractice insurance

2. The overhead incurred by insurance companies and

3. The cost of serving uninsured patients who can't pay out of pocket.

The third one is huge. US emergency rooms by law must treat serious conditions -- but only serious conditions -- whether the patient can pay or not (for some value of "serious" -- I'm not sure of the details, but that don't really matter here). So there's a substantial population that can't get preventive treatment and so have no choice but to let minor conditions go untreated until they become serious (and, of course, much more expensive to deal with).

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#87

Post by thefounder »

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #75
sarcasmOrTears wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With healthcare you either have a true free market, as in no licenses, no patents, etc or you need the State to regulate it and provide it for everybody. The US has the worst possible combination.

America's healthcare system is what furthers the world's healthcare through research and development. Because it is for profit, the quality and advances are superior. Other countries that reap the benefits of drugs that America create while only paying generic prices when Americans have to pay for the inflated prices that pay for those expensive drug trials.

How much R&D did pharma boy do?

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#88

Post by dangus »

lisper wrote: post #63
onion2k wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I go to an Apple store and buy a mouse would it be reasonable for them to add on $300 for keeping iMacs in stock just in case I'd wanted one?

Is it reasonable for Apple to charge $89.95 for a switch? https://www.apple.com/shop/product/HJBD2LL/A/ablenet-plate-s... Also, Apple doesn't have to factor in the cost of malpractice insurance.

This product costs 5 cents more on the manufacturer's website, and the manufacturer charges $9 for shipping.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#89

Post by morningmoon »

raesene9 wrote: post #83
morningmoon wrote: post #76

- 65% of Americans don't save, despite most having the ability to do so. 1 in 3 have less than $5,000 saved for retirement! It's a massive cultural problem. [1] - Most Americans live unhealthy lifestyles that contribute to $1.5 trillion in estimated healthcare costs from preventable disease. 1 in 3 Americans have pre-diabetes and 2 in 3 Americans are overweight. 1 in 3 Americans are obese. Again, a cultural problem.…

isn't taxation, in this case, a type of government enforced savings :) So the gov. could force people to essentially provide for a level of healthcare for everyone. Also on the Obesity point, if the UK was a US state we would rate somewhere in the middle of the pack on obesity levels. Yet the UK pays far less per capita on healthcare and provides a basic level of healthcare free at point of use (rich people are free…

The bulk of research shows the US spends more on healthcare due to higher prices, not more care. Increasing taxes will not solve anything without some sort of strategy to control prices.

One solution is price controls for common, well understood procedures and medications, like most other countries with single-payer. The UK for example, engages in price controls.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#90

Post by nosianu »

morningmoon wrote: post #76

- 65% of Americans don't save, despite most having the ability to do so. 1 in 3 have less than $5,000 saved for retirement! It's a massive cultural problem. [1] - Most Americans live unhealthy lifestyles that contribute to $1.5 trillion in estimated healthcare costs from preventable disease. 1 in 3 Americans have pre-diabetes and 2 in 3 Americans are overweight. 1 in 3 Americans are obese. Again, a cultural problem.…

On the level of the economy there is no "saving" (ignoring small things like leaving resources under ground for later instead of digging them up now). What is produced now is consumed now, especially services. Governments may keep strategic reserves e.g. of oil or some basic foods but that's outside the economy, that's (obviously) not added to by "saving for retirement" and all the other kinds of "saving" that individuals are encouraged to do.

Just think about it for a moment, what it actually means when people "save". The future economy certainly doesn't need that money, it's used in the current economy and not buried underground. Not to mention that money, being completely virtual (which is a good thing IMO), never is a problem - unless the government (or the world) messes up big time (like in the 1930s).

Businesses don't need anybody's "savings" either, banks create money (through debt) if a lender, especially a business, has a good plan.

So again, just take a moment to think about what it means when everybody is encouraged to "save". One aspect is - do those with any power (and I don't mean this politically, simply that different people have different roles and positions) really want everybody to save? Because if everybody does it the economy goes down. One person's expenses are another person's income. However, having this "you don't save!" sure is great to have to throw into conversations to show "it's your own fault". Of course, that's not the intention why "you must save" is kept, I don't think anybody (of those who are relevant) consciously thinks like that. Overall though "saving" helped lower the government's role and funnel lots of money streams through a thriving and ever increasing financial industry. If the government actually wanted people to consume less they could have achieved that decades ago.

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