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Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

theatlantic.com

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Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#71

Post by rayiner »

I think we should have universal healthcare, but I don’t know how I feel about the “medical bankruptcy” angle. It strikes a chord with the middle/upper middle class readers of the Atlantic because those people fear losing their financial status. But to me, protecting the financial status of middle class people seems like a particularly poor justification for universal health care.

Why should the government use tax dollars to keep a middle class person from going bankrupt, instead of giving that money to someone who started at $0 and stayed at $0? You’re a middle class professional and you get unlucky and get cancer, the government will pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for your treatment. But if you’re unlucky in a different way, say you are born in the ghetto to poor parents, the government won’t give you hundreds of thousands of dollars. That seems completely backward.

Say you raise taxes hundreds of billions of dollars. Is protecting middle class people from being wiped out financially if they have a medical catestrophe really the highest and best use of that money? For about $100 billion you could give every child born into poverty an “inheritance” of $100,000. Wouldn’t that be a better use of the money?

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#72

Post by yongjik »

lisper wrote: post #36
enraged_camel wrote: post #2

I accidentally stabbed myself in the finger while cutting open a package using a knife. Stupid, I know. The would was small, maybe 1 centimeter, but deep enough that it wouldn't stop bleeding on its own. My girlfriend insisted we go to the ER (urgent cares around here are closed on Sundays), so we did. I was the only one there that day. I was ushered in to see a doctor. The doctor looked at the wound, and said, "this…

You weren't paying for the glue and the five minutes. You were paying for the overhead of maintaining all the other stuff that was there that you might have needed under different circumstances but happened not to need that day.

While that's true, that's also true for all other countries where hospitals don't bill you $2,600 for glue and five minutes. So now the question merely shifts to why America needs that much money for stocking supplies and keeping doctors sitting at hospital.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#73

Post by leib »

lisper wrote: post #36
enraged_camel wrote: post #2

I accidentally stabbed myself in the finger while cutting open a package using a knife. Stupid, I know. The would was small, maybe 1 centimeter, but deep enough that it wouldn't stop bleeding on its own. My girlfriend insisted we go to the ER (urgent cares around here are closed on Sundays), so we did. I was the only one there that day. I was ushered in to see a doctor. The doctor looked at the wound, and said, "this…

You weren't paying for the glue and the five minutes. You were paying for the overhead of maintaining all the other stuff that was there that you might have needed under different circumstances but happened not to need that day.

If that overhead cost was required the insurance company wouldn't have been able to negotiate it down

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#74

Post by patricklorio »

tapland wrote: post #60
patricklorio wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure the government can do a good job negotiating on behalf of its citizens. It doesn't work well for student loans (blind checks that increases tuition) [1], California's power cost (rate set with gov cooperation) [2], or even Medicare [3]. I think we need to fix several more issues before single payer would be a suitable option. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/prestoncooper2/2017/02/22/how-u... [2] http://…

How is this, from your link, the government bargaining on medical costs? > but the plan bypasses an obvious remedy - one that President Donald Trump embraced as a candidate: allowing Medicare to negotiate drug prices directly with pharmaceutical companies. To me (non-english native speaker) it reads as if though they are literally not allowed to negotiate. When it comes to schools, here (Sweden) the government negoti…

The points I posted are a few examples of the government doing a poor job at dealing with the public's money. With medicare they past laws preventing their ability to negotiate. For schools in the US, the federal government has no limit on the amount of loans they can give it. I think these are relevant to the government's negotiation ability as in both cases they're allowing the counter party to abuse them to the detriment of the public. I don't trust that if the government is the single payer for healthcare that they won't let the pharmaceutical companies and hospitals take advantage of them.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#75

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

sarcasmOrTears wrote: post #48
tapland wrote: post #5

Don't fall for the 'yes, but countries that have cheap healthcare pay for it with taxes'. The US pays more than most from taxes[0]. In Sweden we pay less per capita than americans do (from taxes) and my total _maximum_ healthcare costs for _all_ treatments, medications, surgury etc, that in the US would be paid by your employer or yourself are: $125/year max for all visits and procedures [1] + $250/year max for all p…

With healthcare you either have a true free market, as in no licenses, no patents, etc or you need the State to regulate it and provide it for everybody. The US has the worst possible combination.

America's healthcare system is what furthers the world's healthcare through research and development. Because it is for profit, the quality and advances are superior. Other countries that reap the benefits of drugs that America create while only paying generic prices when Americans have to pay for the inflated prices that pay for those expensive drug trials.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#76

Post by morningmoon »

- 65% of Americans don't save, despite most having the ability to do so. 1 in 3 have less than $5,000 saved for retirement! It's a massive cultural problem. [1]

- Most Americans live unhealthy lifestyles that contribute to $1.5 trillion in estimated healthcare costs from preventable disease. 1 in 3 Americans have pre-diabetes and 2 in 3 Americans are overweight. 1 in 3 Americans are obese. Again, a cultural problem. [2]

Our culture is toxic and unsustainable. Government can't fix this. It's a generational problem that's been growing with each generation.

[1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/15/bankrate-65-percent-of-ameri...

[2]: https://blog.bcbsnc.com/2014/06/costly-habits-1-5-trillion-l... [3]:

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#77

Post by s_y_n_t_a_x »

mseidl wrote: post #64
badpun wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make American-level software engineer salary in Sweden, your EFFECTIVE (not marginal, effective) tax rate is a freaking 55% - at least that’s the number given to me by a recruiter whi tried to bring me there. Also, you pay 25% VAT. I’m sorry, but that’s a bit outrageous.

As a German software engineer that used to work in the USA, do I pay more taxes in Germany, yes. But, I don't have to worry about going bankrupt from medical issues. In Seattle where I used to live daycare is 30,000$ a year per kid. In Germany it's at most like 200-300 euros a month. Plus you get kindergeld too(200 euros per kid). We don't go into 10s of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for schoo…

Most Americans have good healthcare through their employer. The premiums are reasonable, and the quality is great. Only if you're self employed or part time do you pay out of pocket, something you need to factor in when you make life decisions.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#78

Post by Novashi »

lisper wrote: post #36
enraged_camel wrote: post #2

I accidentally stabbed myself in the finger while cutting open a package using a knife. Stupid, I know. The would was small, maybe 1 centimeter, but deep enough that it wouldn't stop bleeding on its own. My girlfriend insisted we go to the ER (urgent cares around here are closed on Sundays), so we did. I was the only one there that day. I was ushered in to see a doctor. The doctor looked at the wound, and said, "this…

You weren't paying for the glue and the five minutes. You were paying for the overhead of maintaining all the other stuff that was there that you might have needed under different circumstances but happened not to need that day.

It needs to be billed and itemized then because that's racketeering language.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#79

Post by njepa »

badpun wrote: post #57
tapland wrote: post #5

Don't fall for the 'yes, but countries that have cheap healthcare pay for it with taxes'. The US pays more than most from taxes[0]. In Sweden we pay less per capita than americans do (from taxes) and my total _maximum_ healthcare costs for _all_ treatments, medications, surgury etc, that in the US would be paid by your employer or yourself are: $125/year max for all visits and procedures [1] + $250/year max for all p…

If you make American-level software engineer salary in Sweden, your EFFECTIVE (not marginal, effective) tax rate is a freaking 55% - at least that’s the number given to me by a recruiter whi tried to bring me there. Also, you pay 25% VAT. I’m sorry, but that’s a bit outrageous.

It's true, but it also includes benefits and not only taxes. An American-level software engineering salary in Sweden is also probably twice that of the average software engineer, so you are going to pay a lot more in taxes than the average software engineer. That is because wealth transfers and income equality is Sweden's way to create a nice society. The problem is however that today an average salary, even as a software engineer, doesn't go very far in Sweden. And especially not in the housing market. You need wealth, which isn't taxed much by comparison. So in that sense your outrage is correct.

Re: Americans Are Going Bankrupt from Getting Sick

#80

Post by AlfeG »

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #26
raesene9 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting you say that, I've heard that line of argument before but it is quite puzzling. Are you suggesting that a person on Low income in the US doesn't object to paying more than they have for their own healthcare (i.e. that they wouldn't like that healthcare to be cheaper) That seems a bit counter-intuitive, as usually people don't like being bankrupt.

Americans believe that only poor people get bankrupt... then they get cancer. It's hard to swallow an increase on taxes when you're healthy and think you will never get sick.

There is a miriad less mortal deseases then cancer, that can broke anyone, especially if its Your kids are suffering...
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