Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation

#231

Post by neilv » Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 4:25 PM UTC

Datenstrom wrote: post #214

flattone wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wprq: So which phone does a concerned person buy?

As far as I know Replicant[1] is the only completely open option (besides the baseband OS). I would love to run it myself if it supported more phones, although I have not personally tried it. I keep an eye on the project though. Other projects like Copperhead OS[2] have all mysteriously imploded. [1]: https://replicant.us/ [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17289536

I've run Replicant (as an exercise, not for serious privacy/security requirements), but I don't really recommend Replicant.

Replicant drawbacks include:

* Starved for developer time (e.g., low device support, slow/no updates for known exploits, question of how many eyeballs seeing changes, no current semi-secure way to browse Web).

* Only kinda barely minimally almost works.

* The supported hardware devices are not only few and old, but have fundamental security weaknesses in hardware.

* Android is a huge code base, and, going forward, to some degree you're at the mercy of whatever the developer decides to do with it.

* You're trying to adopt a platform that was, to some extent, designed around surveillance of the user. You can disable a lot of snooping, but you would design it very differently if privacy&security were goals.

Librem5 is sorta an option, if you can afford it, though they still use closed hardware black boxes. (Also, even when two black boxes are "isolated", and you think you control the communication channel, you don't necessarily.)

It's too bad that FirefoxOS didn't work out. The Gecko layer and up could've been moved to a purer Linux stack (ditching the Android build tree monstrosity), and to more trustworthy hardware.

Personally, I'm hoping we go back to the original Linux emphasis on mainline kernel, maintainable open drivers, blob-free. The closest effort I've seen is PostmarketOS [1], but it's still in an early state, and it could also be a little more strict about compromise slippery slopes (e.g., the wiki can be misleading about what works on a device, since it might be talking about a non-mainline kernel, and perhaps they should ban kludges to run closed Android drivers). I wish I had more time to work on pmOS at the moment (but am job-hunting, and my new open source work has to be much more near-term employable than this).

[1] https://www.postmarketos.org/

Re: Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation

#232

Post by AlexandrB » Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 5:11 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #223

ionised wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better to just let people get away with whatever they want, right? I mean, as long as the crime made a lot of money, it can't really be a crime, surely?

It's better to be rational about creating the right incentives to prevent socially damaging behavior rather than stoking moral indignation disconnected from any semblance of benefit to society. How the left became the torch-bearers for unreflective moral indignation and retributivism is beyond me.

> It's better to be rational about creating the right incentives to prevent socially damaging behavior rather than stoking moral indignation disconnected from any semblance of benefit to society.

I hope you apply the same rubric to shoplifting, drug posession, and the dozens of other non-violent crimes that get people put in jail regularly. Otherwise this is just a justification for keeping power unaccountable.

Re: Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation

#233

Post by AlexandrB » Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

hodder wrote: post #194

dfxm12 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What laws have Facebook broken? The article very clearly states that there is a criminal investigation going on.

Right. So people in the thread advocating 3-5 years of prison for someone who hasn't even been charged with a crime is outrageous.

> So people in the thread advocating 3-5 years of prison for someone who hasn't even been charged with a crime is outrageous.

I don't see how its outrageous. We're (probably) not judges and we're not likely to be on the jury either. This kind of "I hope he goes to jail for a million years" posturing is quite common when people discuss any sort of criminal behaviour.

Is it beneficial or just? Perhaps not. But it's so natural that calling it "outrageous" is quite a reach.

Re: Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation

#234

Post by hackinthebochs » Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 5:51 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #232

hackinthebochs wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's better to be rational about creating the right incentives to prevent socially damaging behavior rather than stoking moral indignation disconnected from any semblance of benefit to society. How the left became the torch-bearers for unreflective moral indignation and retributivism is beyond me.

> It's better to be rational about creating the right incentives to prevent socially damaging behavior rather than stoking moral indignation disconnected from any semblance of benefit to society. I hope you apply the same rubric to shoplifting, drug posession, and the dozens of other non-violent crimes that get people put in jail regularly. Otherwise this is just a justification for keeping power unaccountable.

Absolutely. I think free will is a terrible concept that only serves to justify our retributive tendencies. Our entire approach to criminal justice needs an overhaul.

Re: Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation

#235

Post by zaccus » Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 5:58 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #223

ionised wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better to just let people get away with whatever they want, right? I mean, as long as the crime made a lot of money, it can't really be a crime, surely?

It's better to be rational about creating the right incentives to prevent socially damaging behavior rather than stoking moral indignation disconnected from any semblance of benefit to society. How the left became the torch-bearers for unreflective moral indignation and retributivism is beyond me.

>the right incentives

Like, say, not going to prison? You know, the main incentive used for regular people? Just spitballing here.

Re: Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation

#236

Post by zaccus » Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 5:59 PM UTC

navigatesol wrote: post #184

dustinmoris wrote: post #172

> F.T.C. officials, who spent the past year investigating whether Facebook violated the 2011 agreement, are now weighing the sharing deals as they negotiate a possible multibillion-dollar fine. That would be the largest such penalty ever imposed by the trade regulator. A multibillion dollar fine? That's great, but even greater would be to put Facebook's exces behind bars. A CEO shouldn't walk away with a stuffed bank…

> but even greater would be to put Facebook's exces behind bars. What is with this place wanting to throw everyone in prison? Is there some thrill you get from seeing executives in an orange jumper? Fines can be far more beneficial to society. Make them pay in a way that actually helps other people.

>Is there some thrill you get from seeing executives in an orange jumper?

Criminals. The word you're looking for is criminals. And yes, most people like seeing criminals in an orange jumper.

Re: Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation

#237

Post by tejtm » Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

navigatesol wrote: post #184

dustinmoris wrote: post #172

> F.T.C. officials, who spent the past year investigating whether Facebook violated the 2011 agreement, are now weighing the sharing deals as they negotiate a possible multibillion-dollar fine. That would be the largest such penalty ever imposed by the trade regulator. A multibillion dollar fine? That's great, but even greater would be to put Facebook's exces behind bars. A CEO shouldn't walk away with a stuffed bank…

> but even greater would be to put Facebook's exces behind bars. What is with this place wanting to throw everyone in prison? Is there some thrill you get from seeing executives in an orange jumper? Fines can be far more beneficial to society. Make them pay in a way that actually helps other people.

I think it comes down to real versus symbolic consequences and anthropomorphising non persons (Here, person in common language is constrained to individual Homo sapiens NCBITaxon:9606) The non corporeal entity in question can not be put in an orange jumpsuit and the fine if large enough could have an actual impact. However a number on a ledger does nothing to satisfy a human perception of justice served.

To me the answer is; do both.

Re: Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation

#238

Post by rchaud » Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 7:02 PM UTC

navigatesol wrote: post #184

dustinmoris wrote: post #172

> F.T.C. officials, who spent the past year investigating whether Facebook violated the 2011 agreement, are now weighing the sharing deals as they negotiate a possible multibillion-dollar fine. That would be the largest such penalty ever imposed by the trade regulator. A multibillion dollar fine? That's great, but even greater would be to put Facebook's exces behind bars. A CEO shouldn't walk away with a stuffed bank…

> but even greater would be to put Facebook's exces behind bars. What is with this place wanting to throw everyone in prison? Is there some thrill you get from seeing executives in an orange jumper? Fines can be far more beneficial to society. Make them pay in a way that actually helps other people.

People convicted of insider trading get prison sentences. Was theirs a violent crime? No. Did they cause a recession, harming thousands of people? No.

They're sent to prison because it has a deterrent effect, in an industry where insider trading is easily accomplished by also hard to prove in court.

Same goes here. The public has no ability to audit FB's data collection and sharing practices. We simply have to take their word for it when they announce a new "privacy-focused Facebook".

If prosecutors can find a criminal charge that sticks, any conviction should lead to jail time.

Re: Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation

#239

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 8:24 PM UTC

solomatov wrote: post #199

dragonwriter wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of crimes that require a mental state less than intent (either recklessness or criminal negligence, mostly, though there are some strict liability crimes, and the weird case of “malice aforethought” for common law murder which is narrower than recklessness but just slightly broader than only intent.)

Recklessness and negligence require some understanding of what you are doing and that it's wrong. So, it's really hard to commit them by mistake.

> Recklessness and negligence require some understanding of what you are doing and that it's wrong.

Negligence specifically does not, it only requires the existence of a duty of care (except not in specialized cases, that of reasonable care, which doesn't mean you are aware of risk, but that a reasonable person in your place would be.) Recklessness requires conscious awareness and disregard of risk, but not awareness of wrongness.

Harms from recklessness are mistakes, while recklessness itself is not, but negligence is quite normally a mistake.

Re: Facebook’s Data Deals Are Under Criminal Investigation

#240

Post by artificial » Thu, Mar 14, 2019, 8:46 PM UTC

gotocake wrote: post #225

artificial wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quality software exists and is written by talented engineers. Its written in specific languages and is tested on specific hardware configurations and verifiable. These things cost a bit more. I’m sure if the mass market were willing to bear an enormous cost this would already be solved. Unfortunately I doubt you or your cohorts are willing to pony up $2,999,999 USD a seat (Minimum order 500).

In your fantasy, why does a “seat” cost orders of magnitude more than a first class round trip to Australia in an actual seat? On that note, in the same way that I prefer a more expensive seat on a plane that was designed in accordance with professional and legal standards, yes I’d do the same for software. Maybe there would even be less cruft and bloatware when externalities were accounted for.

The seat is a reference to a software license. Airlines are economies of scale, this is a small run of software that would meet your expectations to run and be verified to do so. Are you aware how much it costs to develop an airplane? It's more than the cost of a single ticket.