Live data from Hacker News

DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

1843magazine.com

31–40 of 142 posts

Re: DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know nothing about how it works, it seems to derive its information and results from somewhere else as if it's hooked some bigger brain ( which can't see ), so analyzing brain alone we don't find anything.

This is inaccurate. We understand much of how it works, how vision, speech, etc work but we don't understand consciousness which is quite different.

You responded to hyperbole with with a vague and imprecise statement. I will admit it is more accurate since "much" is somewhere between "everything" and "nothing".

Re: DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

#32
post #11

> "DeepMind has found a way around this by employing vast amounts of computer power. AlphaGo takes thousands of years of human game-playing time to learn anything." It seems the author may not have been familiar with AlphaGo Zero, which used substantially less processing power. https://deepmind.com/blog/alphago-zero-learning-scratch/

AlphaGo Zero uses substantially less power to play, but it used astronomically more compute power to train & learn. According to OpenAI, AlphaGo Zero used more than 1,000 Petaflop/s-day, or about 4x higher than Alpha Zero and 100x more than Dota 1v1 or 10,000x more than VGG/ResNet. [1] The combination of better algorithms + more efficient hardware has significantly reduced the energy waste of that additional compute power.

[1] https://openai.com/blog/ai-and-compute/

Re: DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

#33
post #2

"But human intelligence is limited by the size of the skull that houses the brain." When you think about it this way, it seems impossible that we haven't duplicated the capability of the human brain in an airplane hangar somewhere. What's going on inside our heads that we can't mimic? That magical algorithm...

If you poke at a real brain, it’s almost fractally complex. Single ion channels can have surprisingly complicated behaviors that depend on their current state and past history. Individual neurons contain tons of these channels, and can do a lot of powerful computation on their own. Of course, there are 86 billion neurons and combinatorically more connections between them. That’s just the neurons too; God only knows w…

Well said. This is my line of thinking when comparing current AI to the human brain.

Re: DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. I’m an actual, working neuroscientist and if we’ve solved any of these things, it would be news to me (and everyone else at my institute). We have good, if coarse, knowledge of which structures are critical for which functions—-at least under some conditions. Our knowledge of how they do this is even cruder: neither the representations nor the algorithms are known with much certainty, let alone how they ari…

Where did I say anything about simulating? Are you really saying that we understand nothing about how vision works? Also a 10 second google search pulls up papers with plenty of details about vision in the brain so I don't know why you're talking about it as if its some great mystery. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4574956/ A 1800 Page textbook on Vision Neuroscience. I'll leave it to HN to decide if we…

I have a PhD in visual neuroscience, so yeah, I’m pretty comfortable saying we don’t know how it works.

We know a lot of facts, and we have some ideas about how various small things are implemented, but in terms of grand unifying theories, we’re nowhere close.

For example, suppose I showed you two gratings (think zebra stripes): a small patch and a larger one. Under some circumstances, you’ll have a harder time determining which way the big patch is oriented vs. the small one. This is true even though there’s extra information in the big patch. We think this is related to a phenomena called surround suppression, but they’re not exactly the same....and no one can agree on how surround suppression is implemented, let alone what it’s good for. This happens in primary visual cortex, which is probably the simplest—-and most extensively studied—of the visual cortical areas.

Re: DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

#35
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming a go game takes 30 minutes on average, and you are never sleeping, resting, etc, you can do approx 18k games per year. In order to reach 4.9 million games you'd have to play for approx 280 years. So yeah, definitely not thousands of years :). Still, we are maybe one or two orders of magnitude away from the amount of games that humans need to play to become world class players. That being said, the AlphaGo ze…

I doubt a human could learn to become even remotely competitive with only self-play within a human lifetime. Go has improved via a distributed effort, so we should try to estimate the number of go games played by humanity (as an upper bound).

Good point. I guess this ability to condense knowledge into language and pass it on has brought us where we are today. Genetically, we aren't that different from cavemen who lived tens of thousands of years ago.

Re: DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

#36
post #20
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Less power doesn't necessarily mean fewer games. According to the paper on AlphaGo Zero, they trained it on ~4.9 million games. > Over the course of training, 4.9 million games of self-play were generated, using 1,600 simulations for each MCTS, which corresponds to approximately 0.4 s thinking time per move.

Assuming a go game takes 30 minutes on average, and you are never sleeping, resting, etc, you can do approx 18k games per year. In order to reach 4.9 million games you'd have to play for approx 280 years. So yeah, definitely not thousands of years :). Still, we are maybe one or two orders of magnitude away from the amount of games that humans need to play to become world class players. That being said, the AlphaGo ze…

> In order to reach 4.9 million games you'd have to play for approx 280 years.

Humans also benefit from millions of years of evolution which shaped our brain architecture in a specific way, and from a rich environment to learn from - nature and society. AG Zero was doing just self play.

Re: DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

#37
> AGI stands for artificial general intelligence, a hypothetical computer program that can perform intellectual tasks as well as, or better than, a human.

It shows the article was written by someone who has no idea what he is talking about. It would not be a "computer program" but a model composed of simpler sub-models that contain both code and data. Data is the essential part, not the code. It would be something that learns, not something preprogrammed like computer programs.

> Its intelligence will be limited only by the number of processors available.

I beg to differ. AGI will be limited by the complexity of the environment, it can't get smarter than what is afforded by the problems it solves. This article provides a fascinating insight into this topic: https://medium.com/@francois.chollet/the-impossibility-of-in...

Re: DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

#38
post #2

"But human intelligence is limited by the size of the skull that houses the brain." When you think about it this way, it seems impossible that we haven't duplicated the capability of the human brain in an airplane hangar somewhere. What's going on inside our heads that we can't mimic? That magical algorithm...

Protein folding is still an exponential time algorithm when done inside a computer and biological systems do this in constant time, massively, in parallel.

Determining whether a molecule is an agonist takes a long time to calculate. I've heard the complexity is O(N^3). Biological systems do this in constant time, trillions of times a second in parallel.

If you could simulate biological systems easily, you could do drug development completely inside a computer.

Re: DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

#39

Apologies in advance for the meta-comment (feel free to disregard) about this: > [Opening Paragraph of Article:] One afternoon in August 2010, in a conference hall perched on the edge of San Francisco Bay, a 34-year-old Londoner called Demis Hassabis took to the stage. Walking to the podium with the deliberate gait of a man trying to control his nerves, he pursed his lips into a brief smile and began to speak: [...]…

That writing style reminds me of the way I was forced to write essays in high school in order to get a good grade - tediously purple prose.

Re: DeepMind and Google: the battle to control artificial intelligence

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. I’m an actual, working neuroscientist and if we’ve solved any of these things, it would be news to me (and everyone else at my institute). We have good, if coarse, knowledge of which structures are critical for which functions—-at least under some conditions. Our knowledge of how they do this is even cruder: neither the representations nor the algorithms are known with much certainty, let alone how they ari…

Where did I say anything about simulating? Are you really saying that we understand nothing about how vision works? Also a 10 second google search pulls up papers with plenty of details about vision in the brain so I don't know why you're talking about it as if its some great mystery. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4574956/ A 1800 Page textbook on Vision Neuroscience. I'll leave it to HN to decide if we…

Re: the book added in your edit. I have it right in front of me.

As I said before, we know a lot of facts. We know a lot about the spectral sensitivity of rods and cones, and the molecular mechanism that lets them turn photons into electrical impulses. We know a little bit about where the areas that process faces are and what visual features the neurons in them respond to. We’ve got pieces, but they’re not put together.

I would say that we understand vision when we can answer a question like “How do you find a friend in a crowd?”

You can start with “When you first met, light bounced off her face and isomerized some retinal from its 11-cis to all-trans form, which caused the bound opsin to change conformation into metarhodopsin II, which activated transducin, which....” Eventually, this cascade caused electrical activity that reaches cortex. A huge set of cortical areas process visual input, and these electrochemical signals flow through all of them. We can predict V1 neurons’ activity reasonably well, less so for the downstream neurons in V2, V4, or the temporal lobe areas. We have only the fuzziest ideas how those patterns are read out, tagged as important to remember, and moved into memory. You've only just met--and yet it gets worse.

To find her, you’ve got to retrieve those patterns from memory (no one knows how, but oscillations might be involved?), and use them to search in a way that’s robust against variations in the friend’s pose, position, rotation, illumination, and even dress style or age, many of which you have never seen before and will never see again. We know, for example, that some cells in IT are fairly robust against some moderate kinds of image changes. Some but not all, of this is done by circuits that look like a convNet. Whether this is a coincidence or not is debatable and how this convNet is trained is a total mystery—-it’s definitely determined by experience, but the feedback signals needed for vanilla backprop are missing.

As you scan the crowd, you’re only getting high-resolution data from a very small part of the visual field. This is (somehow) stitched together into a unified percept. You apply various heuristics—maybe your friend favors bright colors—to speed the search along. How you learn these, and how they’re mixed in with the input from your eyes is unknown, but it’s certainly reflected in your behavioural output: you'll find her faster if you successfully predict what she looks like, and you'll be much slower if you guess wrong. Perhaps you hear a familiar voice or smell the perfume you bought her. This, too, can help you find her, but how information is integrated across senses is unknown too.

Eventually, you find her. You plan a path across the plaza towards a cafe. We have a pretty good understanding of how this works in rats (3-7 Hz oscillations coordinate place cells and grid cells in the hippocampus). Those oscillations are really strong in rodents, but much weaker in monkeys and totally missing in bats, so it's not clear how this works in humans.

Now all you’ve got to do is open your mouth and order coffee....

Post reply on HN