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Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

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Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#111

Post by altern8 »

fromthestart wrote: post #103
novacole wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be a crackpot theory to suggest that for Western Europeans, whose civilization as we know it starts in the late 1400s, who convinced themselves of African inferiority for the purpose of justifying their theft, rape, and murder of those people, upon seeing Black looking people in Egypt from thousands of years before their civilization started, would want to erase signs of it? Sounds just about right to me…

>who convinced themselves of African inferiority for the purpose of justifying their theft, rape, and murder of those people The Africans they encountered had virtually no technology and no government, and looked like different creatures. It wasn't something that required rationalization. There's far less malice in this than you'd like to see. As far as I am aware, there is no credible evidence that Egyptians strongl…

Don't waste your time, his gender studies degree did irreparable damage you cannot fix.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#112

Post by novacole »

fromthestart wrote: post #103
novacole wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be a crackpot theory to suggest that for Western Europeans, whose civilization as we know it starts in the late 1400s, who convinced themselves of African inferiority for the purpose of justifying their theft, rape, and murder of those people, upon seeing Black looking people in Egypt from thousands of years before their civilization started, would want to erase signs of it? Sounds just about right to me…

>who convinced themselves of African inferiority for the purpose of justifying their theft, rape, and murder of those people The Africans they encountered had virtually no technology and no government, and looked like different creatures. It wasn't something that required rationalization. There's far less malice in this than you'd like to see. As far as I am aware, there is no credible evidence that Egyptians strongl…

>and looked like different creatures

These are your words. These are your thoughts.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#113

Post by Bartweiss »

novacole wrote: post #57
aaaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and they didn't mention other crackpot theories either, like ancient aliens destroying the statue's faces with zero-point energy weapons. I wonder why?

Why would it be a crackpot theory to suggest that for Western Europeans, whose civilization as we know it starts in the late 1400s, who convinced themselves of African inferiority for the purpose of justifying their theft, rape, and murder of those people, upon seeing Black looking people in Egypt from thousands of years before their civilization started, would want to erase signs of it? Sounds just about right to me…

It's described as a crackpot/fringe theory because it's an unsupported just-so story, and worse, it's not actually consistent with the data that inspired it. You're right that it's not hard to show motive for such a practice, but that skips past every other consideration, like motive, opportunity, or evidence.

A few things that this theory falls utterly short on:

- Reliefs that were never exported or even found by colonists are often defaced.

- Pharaonic texts specifically reference the practice of defacement and treat it as an act distinct from general vandalism or theft.

- Works show other systematic damage unrelated to racial issues (from the article, statues receiving offerings had their right hands removed, and those providing them had their left hands removed).

- Single reliefs show noses removed on some figures but not others, even when the preserved noses look substantially non-European (e.g. the article's last photo).

- Defacements aren't random, or tied to ethnicity; instead, politically inconvenient rulers like Hatshepsut are overwhelmingly erased while others (even close family members) are not.

- Where text accompanies figures, the names of the defaced figures are also defaced. Which requires knowledge of Ancient Egyptian, a motive to target specific historical figures, and a concern with matters unrelated to appearance.

- Weathering on in situ works commonly suggests noses were removed much closer to their creation than to the 1800s. (This is less clear for works brought to Europe, but that opens the question of simple fragility.)

All of that is above and beyond questions of evidence for the practice, or historical context that Egyptian statues with black features were actually convenient for some racist theories like Samuel Weston's. There's basically no racist practice colonists wouldn't have been willing to engage in, certainly. But advancing specific claims that are inconsistent with huge amounts of evidence is rightly considered a fringe belief.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#114

Post by altern8 »

novacole wrote: post #112
fromthestart wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>who convinced themselves of African inferiority for the purpose of justifying their theft, rape, and murder of those people The Africans they encountered had virtually no technology and no government, and looked like different creatures. It wasn't something that required rationalization. There's far less malice in this than you'd like to see. As far as I am aware, there is no credible evidence that Egyptians strongl…

>and looked like different creatures These are your words. These are your thoughts.

> These are your words. These are your thoughts.

He said those words. Word by word. Word. By Word.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#115

Post by povertyworld »

benj111 wrote: post #102
peteretep wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's double-down on this and point out that the marauding Burmese desecrated temples of their neighbours -- knocking heads off Buddhas -- and they were of identical religions!

I believe Muslims recognise Jesus as a prophet [1], so there was more going on there than different religions. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

I can't say what happened when the Turks arrived, but that region was already known for iconoclasm while it was still under Christian leadership.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Iconoclasm

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#116

Post by Bartweiss »

dharmon wrote: post #18
intrasight wrote: post #9

I had the question, after visiting Rome, of why so many Roman statues lacked a penis. Found this. But I'm sure that in many cases it was just due to the fact that appendages on statues are more easily damaged - whether nose or penis. http://ourromanadventure.blogspot.com/2009/10/where-are-all-...

I remember reading Da Vinci Code (awful book) and he (the protagonist) made this claim, that there was a "Great Demasculation" to remove penises from statues. I tried looking it up but couldn't find anything to support that this was true. But this was 2003 so information on the web wasn't as plentiful or easy to find. A simpler explanation is, as you say, that they are just more easily broken.

On one hand, it's well-established that the Catholic Church was uncomfortable with nude art, not only in Christian works but in Roman-era 'heroic nudity'. On the other hand, the reason that's well-documented is that we know a great deal of art, including statuary, was altered by adding fig leaves and other concealments to hide nudity.

I guess it's possible that lesser works were simply defaced instead of being altered, but given how much hand-wringing was devoted to altering statues, it's the sort of practice I'd expect to be well-documented, and I've never seen any evidence to that effect. I'd guess you're right: it's yet another case of Brown grabbing a random pattern and inserting meaning for it.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#118

Post by tP5n »

cwmma wrote: post #58
naibafo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only information I have on Egyptian noses is that, according to Asterix and Obelix, Cleopatra was famous for her nose.

she was Greek though so probably not a great example

she was born in alexandria, north africa, as daughter to the ruling pharaoh of the ptomelaic kingdom in egypt.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#119

Post by sbov »

gameswithgo wrote: post #80
pathseeker wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The computer geniuses here at Hacker News have decided Don't do this

Like all "smart" professions, the practitioners tend to think their smart extends beyond their domain of expertise. It doesn't.

I find most "smart" professionals I interact with are people, mostly like other people.

The internet is different of course, but if you're painting people with a broad brush based upon internet interactions, there are bigger problems than "smart" professionals saying dumb things.

Re: Why Do So Many Egyptian Statues Have Broken Noses?

#120

Post by fromthestart »

novacole wrote: post #109
fromthestart wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

White man bad! I think the sickness is in our own very recent culture's push to deface historic European culture, and rationalize all sorts of interpretations of evilness by, ironically, dehumanizing Europeans, as you're doing here.

Putting people in Zoos is a good thing? It dehumanizes Europeans to say that it is sick to put people in Zoos? Also, I never said anything about white people. I was talking specifically about the Western Europeans who put people in Zoos. I think your comment perfectly illustrates the lengths people will go to and the ways in which they will contort their minds in order to uphold an strange idea that is dear to their…

>I think your comment perfectly illustrates the lengths people will go to and the ways in which they will contort their minds in order to uphold an strange idea that is dear to their hearts, however

Ironic that I was pointing out that you're doing exactly this.

>Putting people in Zoos is a good thing? It dehumanizes Europeans to say that it is sick to put people in Zoos?

Are you even going to attempt to argue in good faith?

>Also, I never said anything about white people.

Of course you didn't! Then your racism would be overt. But your anti European narrative is an increasingly common one that has infested academia and is creeping into industry.

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