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Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

bbc.com

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Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#141

Post by yongjik »

benj111 wrote: post #94
vkou wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the EU allow the UK to extend this one-foot-in-one-foot out nonsense? It's not clear that any deal it is willing to offer will get parliamentary assent.

Because European courts have decided that Article 50 can be unilaterally retracted.

I was under the impression that it can be only unilaterally "retracted" (i.e., cancel brexit), but extending the negotiation required EU's agreement, which already stated that they wouldn't unless there's a concrete plan?

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#142

Post by samsonradu »

The Brexit vote happened to precede a period of sustained global growth, mostly throughout the year 2017, which overshadowed its economic implications. Despite that, UK GDP growth lagged behind other developed countries but it was not enough for the UK citizens opinion to change.

As soon as it starts biting people's pockets, which might happen pretty soon according to Central banks/IMF economic forecasts, I believe a new referendum will be called and the decision will be reversed.

There might not be time for that to happen though.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#143

Post by dragonwriter »

LeonM wrote: post #23
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #6

I've said this before so I'll ask this again- I'm an American and I'm entirely ignorant on UK politics. I've followed the headlines and I am still confused why Brexit is happening. It seems no one wants Brexit as it has been suggested by the political leadership of UK, and the majority want to avoid no deal at all. I do not understand why not call the entire Brexit thing off; why is that political suicide?

Well, it's a democracy, they let the people vote, and the people voted in favor of leaving the EU. It's the same for me as a non-American looking at the whole Trump situation. The people chose him as their president, yet I get the impression (again, I'm an outsider) that very few people like him as a president.

> The people chose him as their president

Well, he did get almost as many votes as the top vote getter, so that's almost true.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#144

Post by dragonwriter »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #67
philk10 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he lost the popular vote but thanks to the Electoral College won the presidency

Because, of course, he campaigned to the Electoral College (put advertising effort where the most Electoral College votes could be leveraged). Why the Democrats didn't do this is appalling.

> Because, of course, he campaigned to the Electoral College

Regardless of the validity of this argument as to Constitutional legitimacy, it's inapplicable to th claim made upthread which is that “the people chose him as their President”. They did not.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#145

Post by _rpd »

pmyteh wrote: post #4

The current BBC headline is "Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes", which is a better summary of the situation. For a variety of reasons (legal, procedural, and political) MPs can't simply resolve to reject Brexit, and didn't do so today. What they can do is reject the exit deal that May has negotiated. Some of them have voted to do this because they want a 'softer' Brexit with a closer ongoing relation…

This 6 minute video by CGP Grey explains the different possible relationships with the EU available to the UK, and why the UK has so far rejected all of them ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#146

Post by betulaq »

oliveshell wrote: post #20
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #6

I've said this before so I'll ask this again- I'm an American and I'm entirely ignorant on UK politics. I've followed the headlines and I am still confused why Brexit is happening. It seems no one wants Brexit as it has been suggested by the political leadership of UK, and the majority want to avoid no deal at all. I do not understand why not call the entire Brexit thing off; why is that political suicide?

There’s a widely-held belief that simply calling the whole thing off— or holding a second referendum— would cause outrage and undermine public faith in British democracy (by ‘ignoring the will of the people’, i.e., the referendum result).

As an American I've been confused by this argument against a second referendum. It has for a long time seemed like the best option. If people still want Brexit, they'd vote for it (note that a second vote would only strengthen confidence that Brexit is really what people want). If not, then the will of the people has changed.

It seems like a second referendum would optimally be framed differently than the first, but it seems like the best option as an outsider. The current scenario doesn't seem to be working.

Strange times we all live in.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#147

Post by vkou »

sparkie wrote: post #103
vkou wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the EU allow the UK to extend this one-foot-in-one-foot out nonsense? It's not clear that any deal it is willing to offer will get parliamentary assent.

The EU doesn't want the UK to leave. It would damage their project massively. It might even unravel it entirely if some other countries decide to follow in the UK's footsteps.

If the EU doesn't want the UK to leave, then its best option is the give the UK as much rope as it needs to hang itself, and pray that the UK comes to its senses, instead of giving it more time to negotiate a Brexit that will actually get parliamentary support.

"We'll hold another referendum, and cross our fingers that this time, it will vote remain" isn't exactly satisfying to the EU.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#148

Post by dragonwriter »

the_gastropod wrote: post #105
hlnas wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the mass media, which is skewed to the left, wants you to think. The truth is that his approval rating is doing okay, and it's especially good for republican voters.

> and it's especially good for republican voters. This is true, but maybe not for the reasons you think. The number of people who self-identify as "Republican" has shrunk considerably over the past few years. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2018/06/14/trump-owns-...

Republican Party ID is up (at the expense of independents; Democratic ID is the same) from when Trump was elected.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/15370/party-affiliation.aspx

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#149

Post by rwmj »

dragonwriter wrote: post #16
pmyteh wrote: post #4

The current BBC headline is "Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes", which is a better summary of the situation. For a variety of reasons (legal, procedural, and political) MPs can't simply resolve to reject Brexit, and didn't do so today. What they can do is reject the exit deal that May has negotiated. Some of them have voted to do this because they want a 'softer' Brexit with a closer ongoing relation…

> For a variety of reasons (legal, procedural, and political) MPs can't simply resolve to reject Brexit, There is no legal reason why ministers cannot reject Brexit; given the role of Parliament in the UK system of government, there is very little that ministers could be legally prevented from deciding, since the current (at whatever time it is you are asking the question) Parliament itself is generally the ultimate…

The government controls the timetable, so there's a serious procedural obstacle.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#150

Post by benj111 »

yongjik wrote: post #141
benj111 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because European courts have decided that Article 50 can be unilaterally retracted.

I was under the impression that it can be only unilaterally "retracted" (i.e., cancel brexit), but extending the negotiation required EU's agreement, which already stated that they wouldn't unless there's a concrete plan?

Yes. In practice the UK would have to ask the EU for an extension, or article 50 could be retracted and resubmitted, achieving the same thing. There would be political barriers to doing that so the EU does have some bargaining power.
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