Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes • Hacker News Board

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#21

Post by tedivm » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

schintan wrote: post #12

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #6

I've said this before so I'll ask this again- I'm an American and I'm entirely ignorant on UK politics. I've followed the headlines and I am still confused why Brexit is happening. It seems no one wants Brexit as it has been suggested by the political leadership of UK, and the majority want to avoid no deal at all. I do not understand why not call the entire Brexit thing off; why is that political suicide?

because if Parliament overturns the people's vote it sets a dangerous precedent.

It was a non-binding referendum. It wouldn't be "overturning" anything.

A delay plus a new vote (now that people are more educated on things) seems like the most democratic way to handle this.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#22

Post by osrec » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

I think this just goes to show that maybe the entire Brexit option was not a good one. I mean, why would Theresa May not try and get a good deal - she is trying her level best, powering through defeat after defeat in the house! One could conclude that, perhaps, there just isn't a good deal to be had. Brexiteers seem to have this "it'll be alright on the night" attitude - as if they want to leave without weighing up the pros and cons of both sides - their staunchness confuses me and reminds me of this Charles Bukowski quote:

"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence."

I can see this going to another referendum soon. May even trigger a general election. Fun times!

Edit: there is an overwhelming belief amongst Brexiteers that a second referendum would be undemocratic. But how can it be? It represents the most up to date public opinion. If they're so confident that it's what the people want, why will it make a difference? If anything, it'll just help quell any uncertainty. What is truly undemocratic is manipulation of the electorate. Manipulation happened on a large scale during the referendum, and there is a fair bit of proof to back up this claim, including blatant lies, social media and other advertising campaigns.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#23

Post by LeonM » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 7:51 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #6

I've said this before so I'll ask this again- I'm an American and I'm entirely ignorant on UK politics. I've followed the headlines and I am still confused why Brexit is happening. It seems no one wants Brexit as it has been suggested by the political leadership of UK, and the majority want to avoid no deal at all. I do not understand why not call the entire Brexit thing off; why is that political suicide?

Well, it's a democracy, they let the people vote, and the people voted in favor of leaving the EU.

It's the same for me as a non-American looking at the whole Trump situation. The people chose him as their president, yet I get the impression (again, I'm an outsider) that very few people like him as a president.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#24

Post by jedberg » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

napo wrote: post #8

It's getting closer and closer to a no-deal, and yet the pound doesn't really go down. Does anybody understand why?

No deal Brexit has already been priced in. It's already taken the hit. If anything, a "with deal" Brexit or a withdrawal from the exit process (no exit) will probably make the pound go back up.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#25

Post by rb808 » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #6

I've said this before so I'll ask this again- I'm an American and I'm entirely ignorant on UK politics. I've followed the headlines and I am still confused why Brexit is happening. It seems no one wants Brexit as it has been suggested by the political leadership of UK, and the majority want to avoid no deal at all. I do not understand why not call the entire Brexit thing off; why is that political suicide?

I believe its very similar to Trump's success. Over the last 20 years with globalization some people have done very well, city dwelling professionals, property owners, those working in technology etc. Many hard working, middle and working class people in rural and industrial areas have suffered - and this got worse after 2008 crisis.

Brexit and Trump are just these people saying they want a big change in direction. I dont think they're sure Brexit and Trump will improve things but at least the city dwelling elite doesn't like it so there must be something good about it.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#26

Post by retrac98 » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

TicklishTiger wrote: post #5

Why do politicians always seem so uncivilized to me? Both sides of an argument always argue as if they believe the other side is stupid and they know for sure they are right. That is the biggest stupidity in itself. Why are there no politicians that spend their time on trying to understand the other side, rather then shouting out their own message? Those would be the ones I would vote. But they simply do not exist.

Most people would not vote for this kind of politician.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#27

Post by chc » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

nkkollaw wrote: post #13

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #6

I've said this before so I'll ask this again- I'm an American and I'm entirely ignorant on UK politics. I've followed the headlines and I am still confused why Brexit is happening. It seems no one wants Brexit as it has been suggested by the political leadership of UK, and the majority want to avoid no deal at all. I do not understand why not call the entire Brexit thing off; why is that political suicide?

Well, people vote for something and you ignore their democratic vote. Pretty bad.

The usual suggestion is not to ignore the vote, but to put it back up for a vote. Ask people if, now that they've seen the difficulty of Brexit, they still want to do this. If the people actually want the Brexit that exists in real life, they'll reaffirm. It's still democratic by any reasonable definition of the word.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#28

Post by hlnas » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 7:53 PM UTC

LeonM wrote: post #23

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #6

I've said this before so I'll ask this again- I'm an American and I'm entirely ignorant on UK politics. I've followed the headlines and I am still confused why Brexit is happening. It seems no one wants Brexit as it has been suggested by the political leadership of UK, and the majority want to avoid no deal at all. I do not understand why not call the entire Brexit thing off; why is that political suicide?

Well, it's a democracy, they let the people vote, and the people voted in favor of leaving the EU. It's the same for me as a non-American looking at the whole Trump situation. The people chose him as their president, yet I get the impression (again, I'm an outsider) that very few people like him as a president.

That's what the mass media, which is skewed to the left, wants you to think. The truth is that his approval rating is doing okay, and it's especially good for republican voters.

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#29

Post by notfromhere » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 7:54 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #6

I've said this before so I'll ask this again- I'm an American and I'm entirely ignorant on UK politics. I've followed the headlines and I am still confused why Brexit is happening. It seems no one wants Brexit as it has been suggested by the political leadership of UK, and the majority want to avoid no deal at all. I do not understand why not call the entire Brexit thing off; why is that political suicide?

This all happened because Cameron really misread the room

Re: Brexit: MPs reject Theresa May's deal by 149 votes

#30

Post by jerf » Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 7:54 PM UTC

napo wrote: post #8

It's getting closer and closer to a no-deal, and yet the pound doesn't really go down. Does anybody understand why?

It's hard to read the market's mind, but apparently the market doesn't think this is an apocalyptic event, or indeed, ultimately even likely to be that big a deal economically.

There's no guarantee it is correct. But it is worth considering as a data point, keeping in mind its (anthropomorphized) perspective, as well as the other perspectives and where they are coming from as well.

(This includes the predictions of apocalypse. There are many actors who are well motivated to predict that regardless of their own personal beliefs. This doesn't make their predictions false, either. I'm just an advocate of applying "follow the money/motivation" everywhere, even and at times especially to people who agree with your current perspective.)