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Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

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Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Google has recently deviated from this strategy. The result of the strategy you mention is that the industry standardized on other companies' implementation of ideas that came from Google: Hadoop (MapReduce), HDFS (GFS), ZooKeeper (Chubby, and more. For examples of newer open source projects that see more active maintenance from Google, see Kubernetes and TensorFlow.

But K8s is not a development of Google software. It is developed specifically for the public, it throws out all of the interesting parts of Borg, and Google themselves don't use it, or barely do. As for that other stuff it seems to have worked out fine for Google: they describe obsolete technologies and the outside world develops hideous analogs of those and uses them for decades. Hadoop for example is just an unbeli…

Well, nobody should be using MapReduce now, and HDFS now is a lot better than 8 years ago.

Without Google using, validating and releasing those design, we might be stuck with MPI and NFS for a lot longer.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#232
post #49

I guess that signals it's time for nginx users to check out possible alternatives - just in case, if things turn out for the worse. I can recommend having a look at https://varnish-cache.org/ - while its performance might not be 100% up to par with nginx in some (very, very high-end) scenarios, it has many other fortes that nginx (at least in its FOSS release version; I've never used nginx plus) just cannot match in…

According to the public statements, F5 is committing to maintain the current level of resources NGINX has allocated to their open source programs, to keep the same dev team involved, to keep licensing as it currently is, not change any of the repositories on Mercurial and GitHub and to keep the NGINX brand. Which only means that NGINX will get even better over time.

Which is an interesting statement given that everyone I've run into associated with F5 - local reps or users - have been relentlessly hostile to "open source crap".

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could AGPL and sell proprietary exceptions. Amazon won't touch AGPL code.

Maybe. At least our company won't touch GPL code; as one colleague described to me, if you violate a proprietary license, a company will come after you for money, while violating a GPL license gets the EFF involved who will come after you for your source code. I'm still wary, though. I could imagine if the resultant fines or source code releases from violating a GPL license weren't a strong enough deterrent, you coul…

You actually can't magically lose your rights to code you created. You could rewrite your code so it doesn't depend on gpl code if you found you had included code you had no right to.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Google has recently deviated from this strategy. The result of the strategy you mention is that the industry standardized on other companies' implementation of ideas that came from Google: Hadoop (MapReduce), HDFS (GFS), ZooKeeper (Chubby, and more. For examples of newer open source projects that see more active maintenance from Google, see Kubernetes and TensorFlow.

But K8s is not a development of Google software. It is developed specifically for the public, it throws out all of the interesting parts of Borg, and Google themselves don't use it, or barely do. As for that other stuff it seems to have worked out fine for Google: they describe obsolete technologies and the outside world develops hideous analogs of those and uses them for decades. Hadoop for example is just an unbeli…

Implementation matters to google, more than to say the average company that uses Hadoop. At "Google-scale" small imperfections become huge imperfections.

What's good for the bottom 90% of tech companies probably isn't for the top 10%.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#236
post #83
post #9

I'm nervous about what this means for the future of nginx's built in load balancing. That's been an important and rock-solid part of my infrastructure.

I use F5's at work. The F5's do their job very very well, but are very very touchy. I've always considered nginx to be solid, stable, and low-maintenance. I think the opposite about F5 and am worried about this transition. 1) You can't export and re-import a config. Just doesn't work. 2) For the Virtual Appliance (not a recommended scenario by F5, to be fair) it's temperamental about its host and doesn't like to be m…

I use F5s at work, heres some responses:

1) You can, if you are careful about what your doing. UCS archives are only intended to be restored on the same machines, restoring them on a different machine requires considering the master key for secret encryption and omitting the license from the UCS. If your restoring it on another model F5, you might be going about things in a sub-optimal way.

2) This typically relates to how stuff like VMWare deals with disk issues or migration. In (some versions) VMWare if there is a disk IO operation thats taking too long, it will pause the VM. It also pauses the VM when you use DRS or live migrate. IF your using a failover pair or cluster this will cause a failover because well, the other device went away for a period of time.

3) Ive only ever seen ASM config lost after an upgrade, and its usually because the unit was not relicensed before upgrading and wasnt licensed for the new version as a result.

4) Ive seen this happen an it was usually because something was in a bad state and rebooting just poked it into failing. Also, always save sys config after making changes in tmsh, it doesnt auto-save (same behavior as Cisco).

5) Because F5 has a policy of publishing a bug in the release notes and in bug tracker if it was ever seen by a customer. Contrast this with some other vendors who very selectively publish bug information.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that Google has recently deviated from this strategy. The result of the strategy you mention is that the industry standardized on other companies' implementation of ideas that came from Google: Hadoop (MapReduce), HDFS (GFS), ZooKeeper (Chubby, and more. For examples of newer open source projects that see more active maintenance from Google, see Kubernetes and TensorFlow.

But K8s is not a development of Google software. It is developed specifically for the public, it throws out all of the interesting parts of Borg, and Google themselves don't use it, or barely do. As for that other stuff it seems to have worked out fine for Google: they describe obsolete technologies and the outside world develops hideous analogs of those and uses them for decades. Hadoop for example is just an unbeli…

Google offers their most recent infrastructure as a service in GCP, e.g. Cloud Dataflow, and it hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. Industry standards matter, even if they are inferior implementations; the differential is just not that big.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I help out a lot at Caddy's community forums. I'd like to know more about your experience with Caddy. > user-hostile behavior Which behaviour is user-hostile? Perhaps we could address it? > outright dangerous behavior in the way it fetches SSL certificates For reference, Caddy uses https://github.com/xenolf/lego/ for its ACME interactions with LetsEncrypt. Could you elaborate on what part of Caddy's behaviour is _dan…

I can summarize my feeling with Caddy as it's probably a good choice for solo developers with a handful of sites on a single VPS that's not terribly important. If you have something really important, I would look elsewhere. Caddy used to put non-removable advertisements in the response headers. (That one got such a bad backlash that they backed away...) Caddy refuses to cooperate with OS packaging teams. It reeks of…

I am sorry to hear about the damage done to your business. I appreciate that you took the time to list out those grievances. I'd like to respond on a few points, for the sake of clarity (if you're interested, but also for other readers here).

That header thing was indeed a bit of a fiasco; a misguided attempt to honour the few that stepped up to support Caddy monetarily. Once the depth of the issue was made clear to the developers, it was indeed walked back.

Regarding OS packaging teams - it's not the dev's responsibility to become approved package maintainers for individual distros; it's generally not done, either. The distro maintainers themselves decide which packages to make available, and how to package them. Caddy doesn't offer repos for the individual popular package managers because of the nature of Caddy's third party plugin architecture - none of the package managers allow arbitrary downloads from a build server (rightly so - the package maintaining process is intended to provide much higher assurance of security), and they don't allow for the package to be built to request either. Not only that, but those plugins may or may not be trusted by the user themselves; the usefulness of anyone being able to extend Caddy and publish their own plugin at any time comes with that downside.

The licensing arrangement was born out of a simple need - Caddy devs gotta eat. The code itself is Apache 2.0 - the Caddy project is as FOSS as it gets. The commercial part is the build server, which isn't open source - if you use it to build your binaries, those binaries are considered either commercial or personal in nature. I can tell you that the devs would like nothing more than to have a different method that would satisfy their monetary requirements so they could make the build server binaries free, too.

The idea behind exiting on start with an error is to ensure that when the user starts the server, they know straight away that there's a problem and Caddy can't do what you're asking it to (which is manage your HTTPS certificates). There are ways to get Caddy up, even with out a valid HTTPS certificate, and get your site online regardless - they're just not _automatic_.

The fragile state concept is one we come across frequently. The truth is that when people say they're restarting the server, the meaning of restart is "shut down, then start", instead of "reload". Caddy has graceful reload capabilities; you can swap the Caddyfile and even the binary itself out without interrupting the server (this isn't true on Windows, though, where varied signaling of the Caddy process is not possible in the same way as it is on *nix based systems).

I myself have posted working solutions to full live server migrations (for the entire set of websites), between two fully working and secured (HTTPS) Caddy instances, accounting for DNS propagation. It's not unsupported or difficult, just not _automatic_; it requires some specific configuration and a careful hand (like most live site migrations). The somewhat-recent filesystem clustering Caddy does isn't even related to migration - it's actually supportive of distributed fleets solving challenges for other instances. You've always been able to share the TLS assets between Caddy instances and have them be used.

I wish I (or the developers) had been given a chance to offer some guidance - I believe we would have been able to help avoid some of the downtime and losses suffered by your business.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#239
post #170

So...what is the future of enterprise open source? Is there a future for enterprise open source? If you start a company and open source your core/clients, your product becomes part of AWS, and AWS runs you into the ground. If you mix in proprietary licenses to protect yourself, AWS forks your core, adds in open-source licensed clients, then runs you into the ground (and you lose open-source contributors/supporters as…

Note that none of the successful large companies are actually open sourcing their 'secret sauce'. There is no open source version of Google's search engine, Facebook's social network etc. It's only supporting tools and infrastructure they release (i.e. commoditization of their complements or dependencies.) A product company open sourcing their core product is committing suicide on the product front. Sure, there will…

I don't think Facebook has any "secret sauce". The integration and scale is certainly impressive, but there's no part of the functionality which is at all mysterious to me. Unlike, say, Google Search, everything on Facebook appears pretty straightforward.

They did open-source HHVM, React, GraphQL, and Cassandra, which are the closest things I can see to a secret sauce.

Re: Nginx to Be Acquired by F5 Networks

#240
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much everything. :) L4-L7 load balancing, distributed DNS, SSL offload, WAF, DPI, data centre firewall and other things. With a nice WebUI to configure all that. The Tcl iRules allow you to hook into pretty much any stage of the request or the response L4-L7 at FPGA speeds to do whatever you wanted to the request / response data. It's a very powerful product.

"..a nice WebUI" I challenge that assertion!

And you probably have a point, but it's all relative to configuring all that stuff by hand in the CLI, or worse using some other enterprise vendor's attempt at a "usable" UI ... ;)
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