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CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

bbc.com

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Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#221

Post by tptacek »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #218
tptacek wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, for several reasons. First and most obviously, the purpose of this workshop was to further women's participation in high-energy physics (physics and computer science are the two most lopsided science fields; the need for need for more participation is obvious prima facie ). It was not the purpose of the workshop to hash out Strumia's political beliefs, and had the workshop known what Strumia was going to present,…

> the need for need for more participation is obvious prima facie) You lost me there, because in no way is that obvious prima facie. [Trigger warning, because adults can’t have dispassionate conversations about facts and ideas, and will cherry-pick then knee jerk, probably even in spite of this warning: I’m not saying that women don’t want to enter these fields in the next sentence. I’m not saying that the lack of wo…

I don't believe you could have looked at the other presentations in this workshop, read the workshop intro, and then read Strumia's slides and truly believe that this was a serious presentation. I respectfully (as much as I can be given what I'm about to say) call bullshit.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#222

Post by dang »

mrjesus wrote: post #153
pjc50 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Einstein and many other prominent scientists I'm sure that they could find plenty of issues with their moral character as well. The question has been raised as to whether Einstein's wife Mileva Marić made an uncredited contribution to his work.

"Ancient Alien Theorists Believe ... "

Could you please not post unsubstantive comments, and especially not snark or flamebait, to Hacker News?

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#223

Post by dang »

superkuh wrote: post #158
OldFatCactus wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yawn more redirection and shifting. He stepped out of his own area of expertise to push an agenda of misogyny. He acted unethically and must face the consequences that entails

Being upset and wanting him punished is a fine and valid view. But maybe you should've actually known anything about the situation being discussed before saying patently false and irrelevant things (about this particular situation).

Please don't post in the flamewar style here. Instead, please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post civilly and substantively, or not at all, regardless of how informed someone else is.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#224

Post by toasterlovin »

Barrin92 wrote: post #134
duxup wrote: post #111

>Prof Strumia analysed papers available in a database of particle physics research. He produced a series of graphs which, he claimed, showed that women were hired over men whose research was cited more by other scientists in their publications, which is an indication of higher quality. >He also presented data that he claimed showed that male and female researchers were equally cited at the start of their careers but…

Yes, it is completely circular. Because if discrimination against women exists, then the higher citation rate and slower career progress are equally explained by this. This isn't evidence in favour of some causal explanation about innate differences between men and women, he's just trying to justify his prior assumptions. This is very much comparable to the circular nature of IQ measurement. People with racist attitu…

IQ tests are not used as barriers to any institutions in the US (or in most of the developed world). They are almost exclusively used for research purposes.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#225

Post by sonnyblarney »

netsharc wrote: post #124
sonnyblarney wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They had to apologize because some people were going to be offended, surely, it doesn't mean the presentation is intellectually offensive. 'PR' is different than 'Science'. 'Cultural Marxism' is just a popular term for Intersectionalism, and it's a real issue, particularly on campus. People should be able to talk about issues that are a little bit uncomfortable.

Seems like he'd be free to talk about his theories in an anthropology conference 1), but the presentation had no place in a physics research centre. 1) although it seems the sloppy research would've not been accepted by anthropology experts - just because he's a good physicist doesn't mean he's a good anthropologist, indeed he's not realised that he let his biases lead him to arguments made out of confirmation bias.

I'm not defending his talk.

I'm indicating that his firing isn't necessarily an objective measure of it's 'offensiveness', rather simply a measure of the political sensitivity of the situation.

Given that it was as other posters have indicated kind of a surprise 'gotcha' presentation etc. - it was obviously out of line.

I would probably have severed relationships as well were I in charge of the situation.

But an even better approach would be to address the information in the presentation, because it's going to 'get around' (i.e. the shock value of the presentation means it made the news cycle!).

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#226

Post by dang »

htns wrote: post #73
mcguire wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The neat thing about physicists (and many engineers) is that, because they understand the fundamentals of everything, they are completely qualified to speak on any topic.

We shouldn't settle for anything less than a panel of women's studies professors.

No flamebait, please.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#227

Post by toasterlovin »

rosser wrote: post #179
fromthestart wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are unwilling, to the point of delusion, to accept the possibility that this higher variance really does explain differences in representation among sexes across various top talent industries. Academic society is in a weird place where this kind of bias is acceptable. Which is antithetical to science and I therefore understand Strumia's frustration.

Meanwhile people (though broadly, it appears, a different set of them) also appear to be unwilling, to the point of delusion, to accept the fact that it is meaningless to attempt to extrapolate from statistical phenomena to individual, or vice-versa. So, sure: stipulated. Male h. sapiens sapiens have statistically greater variability, across the population. That in no way whatsoever prevents a woman from being the bi…

> So, sure: stipulated. Male h. sapiens sapiens have statistically greater variability, across the population. That in no way whatsoever prevents a woman from being the biggest or smartest, or a man the smallest or weakest, or either the best at one job, or the worst at another.

It does not prevent a women from being the most (or the least) anything. But it says a lot about the probability of that being the case.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#228

Post by OldFatCactus »

dang wrote: post #217
OldFatCactus wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No and he would still be just as dumb for using weak science and fake research to justify the position that he is unqualified to assert. But obviously there wouldn't be as big of a reaction from the scientific community because the assertion wouldn't have been tinged with vitriolic bigotry. Any other weak what-ifs you want to discuss?

Would you please stop posting to Hacker News in the flamewar style, regardless of how wrong others are or you feel they are? You did it here too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348928 . (Edit: and also here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348978 . And here again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19349065. ) We ban accounts that keep doing this. It's what we're trying to prevent from destroying thi…

I'm sorry. Won't happen again

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#229

Post by sonnyblarney »

tptacek wrote: post #104
ThomPete wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CERNs apology is just a consequence of that presentation not an actual argument against it.

I'm not at all sure what your argument is here. Strumia clearly did mislead CERN and the workshop organizers, pretty clearly gave a presentation to troll the workshop, and clearly launched an attack on another scientist (present at the workshop) during his presentation. Is your argument that someone should have been able to give a contrarian presentation about gender disparities in physics at this workshop? I agree w…

The argument is obvious: the presentation itself is intellectually (mostly) valid and not offensive. The perception of it might be, by some, ergo, he was dismissed.

His dismissal is not an objective nature of the inherent 'offensiveness' of the presentation.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#230

Post by 0815test »

toasterlovin wrote: post #224
Barrin92 wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it is completely circular. Because if discrimination against women exists, then the higher citation rate and slower career progress are equally explained by this. This isn't evidence in favour of some causal explanation about innate differences between men and women, he's just trying to justify his prior assumptions. This is very much comparable to the circular nature of IQ measurement. People with racist attitu…

IQ tests are not used as barriers to any institutions in the US (or in most of the developed world). They are almost exclusively used for research purposes.

IQ tests have been used as barriers in some circumstances - for example, people who are "too smart" may be at a disadvantage should they want to enter some police forces in the U.S.
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