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Our Culture of Contempt

nytimes.com

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Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#141

Post by tptacek »

repolfx wrote: post #136
tptacek wrote: post #22

This is a superficial and unhelpful piece from someone who, despite appearances to the contrary, is in fact a US political partisan. That doesn't make his opinion worthless! But it does make his high-horse stance a bit much to take, to say nothing of the ahistoricism of his thesis (ask someone who appeared before HUAC if partisanism is boiling over in 2019). That said, I come not to bury Arthur Cooke but to praise hi…

He starts his article by saying he's a political conservative who works for a think tank in DC. What 'appearances to the contrary' do you mean? I've never heard of him but having read his article knew immediately he was a political partisan, because he told me so! I'm also unsure why his arguments have not survived. The op-ed appeared cogent and internally consistent to me. If you wish to argue his writing is superfi…

I disagree that he made his background clear. The first graf is written flippantly, in a "you say potato, I say potəto" sort of way (also, "I'm not a politics junkie"). The second graf buries the lede --- he's a professor, a former symphony musician, heads a think-tank... and, oh, by the way, that think tank happens to be AEI, one of the two most prominent centers of Republican conservative thought.

I also made a direct argument as to the ahistoricity of the piece.

I don't think this is especially important --- my original comment stands on its own --- but I'm a nerd and can't resist clarifying and defending my arguments.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#142

Post by DuskStar »

claudiawerner wrote: post #104
towaway1138 wrote: post #3

As a lifelong liberal, I've sunk into despair at the firehose of hatred coming from the left these days. And I talk to far fewer of my old lefty friends anymore--if they've made themselves awful, I just don't want to know. I'd prefer to remember them as they were. Maybe this is just a phase, but it feels like we're going to a place from which we won't return.

I'll give you a perspective from the other side of the fence: I used to be a liberal (and by this I do not mean as the "opposite" of conservative, I mean in the sense of "classical liberalism", the system of rights etc.) but now after reading critiques of its theory and practice and doing more investigation into the historical left movement (19th century figures who are unnameable on HN) I have turned much more to th…

> I am a skeptic of the right to free speech (since I cannot find any logical basis for why it should be privileged over other rights or differentiated from other forms of action)

I'm confused here - what rights do you view free speech as being privileged over?

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#143

Post by towaway1138 »

pjc50 wrote: post #125
towaway1138 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd chalk Pittsburgh up to mental illness rather than politics. The Cato study is interesting, but unfortunately covers a period of decades. I was referring to the last couple of years or so, which unfortunately this does not break out.

There seem to be an awfully large number of mentally ill people who read rightwing material, post on rightwing message boards, and then engage in political murder.

I guess. How many political murders are there in the US each year, though?

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#144

Post by justin66 »

justin66 wrote: post #73
duado wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the liberals think the conservatives are dumb enough to actually believe that Obama is Kenyan. And the conservatives think the liberals actually think that a guy like Trump is suitable material for a KGB asset.

> But the liberals think the conservatives are dumb enough to actually believe that Obama is Kenyan. The Republicans elected a prominent birther so this should not be especially surprising. To look at it a little more precisely, depending on which polls you prefer, somewhere around half of them are, in your words, "dumb enough to actually believe that Obama is Kenyan:" https://www.newsweek.com/trump-birther-obama-pol…

Sorry for the meta, but it's interesting that the "points" on this post have fluctuated up and down quite a bit more than my others (that I've noticed). It's interesting to me because while that sort of thing isn't rare with political posts, this was the post where I was actually sharing data.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#145

Post by [deleted] »

_bxg1 wrote: post #140
justin66 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's not what I said, is it? "They" constantly, intentionally do what Hillary did on her worst day. In light of that, nothing you're saying makes any sense.

It's my experience that the average person - or an entire 50% of the population, if you prefer - isn't a monster. "They" aren't fundamentally worse people than "us". That's the mistake that underpins this whole problem. Maybe on a given dimension, or in a given span of years, you could construct a score sheet that puts them in the red (so to speak). But those on the other side are not holistically morally inferior. N…

[deleted]

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#146

Post by unclebucknasty »

Fellshard wrote: post #126
specialist wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who should we be listening to?

I've found many of the folks at the National Review, for example, to be quite principled. Folks like Ben Shapiro wobble a bit in this regard from time to time, but tends to make arguments based on principle and not merely on leadership, and it's safe to say he's got a pretty loud bullhorn right now as well.

Who is carrying the banner for conservatism and has real influence on public discourse?

Where are the principles of conservativism being rigorously championed, debated, and defended?

When have conservative principles superceded the whims of one man and the cult of personality that now dominates the course of an entire party?

4-6 years ago, Ronald Reagan was the gold standard for conservatives. It was perfunctory to mention his name while running for office. When was the last time you heard him invoked?

If it's really conservative principles you care about, then you're not doing yourself any favors by pretending conservatism hasn't been completely co-opted and derailed for other decidedly less-vaunted purposes. In fact, many of these purposes run roughshod over what conservatives claim to hold dear.

That movement was killed, and many of its supposed adherents are complicit.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#147

Post by unclebucknasty »

_bxg1 wrote: post #32
unclebucknasty wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would that that were always true. The world would be a far simpler and better place.

I didn't say it always works. But if a person has any good faith inside, showing them good faith is the singular way of bringing it out.

Pablum.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#148

Post by Fellshard »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #146
Fellshard wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found many of the folks at the National Review, for example, to be quite principled. Folks like Ben Shapiro wobble a bit in this regard from time to time, but tends to make arguments based on principle and not merely on leadership, and it's safe to say he's got a pretty loud bullhorn right now as well.

Who is carrying the banner for conservatism and has real influence on public discourse? Where are the principles of conservativism being rigorously championed, debated, and defended? When have conservative principles superceded the whims of one man and the cult of personality that now dominates the course of an entire party? 4-6 years ago, Ronald Reagan was the gold standard for conservatives. It was perfunctory to m…

A good chunk of it has, and I grieve for it, and hope the torch can still burn bright through this current time and co-opted leadership that claims to speak with conservative principles.

The sources I cited do still champion it, and seek to discuss it, openly and without malice, with those who are willing to return that courtesy. But from what I can tell, /your/ ears are closed to this feedback. I ask you to open your ears a bit, because right now, you're hearing only exactly what you want people to have said, not what they are actually saying. Not everyone is a mouthpiece for Trump and populism.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#149

Post by int_19h »

Fellshard wrote: post #95
int_19h wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stories in your links cite Portland police, among other sources, without mentioning the link between several prominent police officers who were present at those protests, and the right-wing groups opposing them. I mean, we're talking about a cop literally telling someone, "we have an arrest warrant for you, but here's how you can avoid arrest ...". With that in mind, anything that Portland police says about antif…

Portland Police have stated that it is their policy to routinely reach out to both parties before such an event. You're receiving only half of a story.

There's a difference between reaching out, and actively trying to obstruct justice. Note that it wasn't a case of, "if you show up we'll have reasons to arrest you". The arrest warrant was already issued, but one of the cops involved was trying to prevent it from being served.

There's plenty of details about this story by now, all of them easily verifiable, and practically none in favor of the police.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#150

Post by claudiawerner »

DuskStar wrote: post #142
claudiawerner wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll give you a perspective from the other side of the fence: I used to be a liberal (and by this I do not mean as the "opposite" of conservative, I mean in the sense of "classical liberalism", the system of rights etc.) but now after reading critiques of its theory and practice and doing more investigation into the historical left movement (19th century figures who are unnameable on HN) I have turned much more to th…

> I am a skeptic of the right to free speech (since I cannot find any logical basis for why it should be privileged over other rights or differentiated from other forms of action) I'm confused here - what rights do you view free speech as being privileged over?

In some cases, the right to freedom from discrimination (or right to equal treatment), for instance Catherine MacKinnon and Langton have argued that pornography does this to women, and they're waiting on empirical confirmation of that[0]. Indeed, in some cases the law has even conceded the point and still favored freedom of speech[1] simply because it is speech. To me that seems like dogmatism. There are of course other issues here such as hate speech in the U.S. and those parties that argue for unequal treatment. Speech often makes people feel unsafe, for instance a Jewish neighborhood in which neo-Nazis are marching. Susan Brison has a good overview of the case against free speech[2]. To put it another way, why is it that we have a right to free speech but not a right to swing our arms? What exactly differentiates speech from other actions? Brison finds nothing there.

[0] http://web.mit.edu/sgrp/2008/no2/EatonSAPF.pdf

[1] Easterbrook's judgement in American Booksellers Association v. Hudnut (1985)

[2] https://www.law.berkeley.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Bris...

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