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Our Culture of Contempt

nytimes.com

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Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#91

Post by int_19h »

whack wrote: post #49
vore wrote: post #14

This is an argument you can make regardless of what is actually going on on the ground. "The problem isn't policy, it's actually polarization" -- but the article completely fails to examine the causes of said polarization: What are people feeling angry about? Which people feel angry about what? Are those people justified in feeling angry? Are those angry people just doing it for show or are their lives being actively…

You haven't addressed the author's main point at all. You can disagree all you want with someone, without feeling contempt towards that person. > "but the article completely fails to examine the causes of said polarization" Actually the article does exactly that: > The sources of motive attribution asymmetry are easy to identify: divisive politicians, screaming heads on television, hateful columnists, angry campus ac…

I know a literal neo-Nazi who voted for the other party. Are they worthy of contempt?

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#92

Post by int_19h »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #10

Yes, "both sides" lie incessantly, embrace dictators, attack our norms and institutions, engage in voter suppression, and deploy bots and trolls to engage in earnest, non-contemptuous discussion (including right here on this thread).

This is kind of an amusing list, because you clearly meant it sardonically, but it's literally true.

Embrace dictators - check; remember Obama rushing to Saudi Arabia?

Attack our norms and institutions - check; Dems are talking about killing the filibuster in the Senate for good right now, and of course they were the first to start the process of dismantling it back when they removed it for non-SC judicial appointments under Obama.

Engage in voter suppression - Maryland is one of the worst gerrymandered states in the Union, and it wasn't done by Republicans. Democrats controlling the state are fighting against the courts (which slapped their scheme down) right now, in a lawsuit filed by Republicans.

Bots and trolls - I dunno about bots, but there's no shortage of left-wing trolls.

The usual answer to all this is, "but it's all for a good cause!", or sometimes, "but we're doing less of it than they do!".

The first one can be valid, depending on one's perspective, but then it would be hypocritical to attack the other side for doing all the same things. If your problem is their goals rather than their methods, then just say so: "they're bad because they want to suppress the minority voters, and we want to suppress racists and bigots".

The second one is broadly true (i.e. left vs right as a whole, as opposed to comparing distinct subcultures in either), but it's not an excuse - it just sets up a lesser/greater evil dichotomy. If those things are valid reasons for contempt -- and I'm not saying they aren't, by the way - then both sides deserve it, just in different proportions.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#93

Post by speedplane »

int_19h wrote: post #92
unclebucknasty wrote: post #10

Yes, "both sides" lie incessantly, embrace dictators, attack our norms and institutions, engage in voter suppression, and deploy bots and trolls to engage in earnest, non-contemptuous discussion (including right here on this thread).

This is kind of an amusing list, because you clearly meant it sardonically, but it's literally true. Embrace dictators - check; remember Obama rushing to Saudi Arabia? Attack our norms and institutions - check; Dems are talking about killing the filibuster in the Senate for good right now, and of course they were the first to start the process of dismantling it back when they removed it for non-SC judicial appointmen…

> Attack our norms and institutions... both sides deserve it, just in different proportions.

Okay true, different proportions. It's roughly 1000 to 1 that Trump is messing with institutional norms over liberals.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#94

Post by int_19h »

towaway1138 wrote: post #12
myWindoonn wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. To pick one particular group in one particular metro area, here's violence in Portland caused by right-wing violence-causers: https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/07/patriot_prayers_... https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/08/patriot_prayer_a... https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/08/patriot_prayer_a... https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2018/10/patriot_prayer_f... And here's police collaborating w…

Upvote for the links. Yeah, I've been following the Portland thing a bit. To my eyes, it seems a bit like frenemy sport between PP (kind of full of themselves) and antifa (wannabe fascists without the martial skills). If this is the extreme of right-wing violence in the US at present, well, wake me if something interesting happens. Seems pretty minor compared to that prof that tried to murder someone with a bike lock…

The stories in your links cite Portland police, among other sources, without mentioning the link between several prominent police officers who were present at those protests, and the right-wing groups opposing them. I mean, we're talking about a cop literally telling someone, "we have an arrest warrant for you, but here's how you can avoid arrest ...".

With that in mind, anything that Portland police says about antifa in those protests is basically untrustworthy by default.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#95

Post by Fellshard »

int_19h wrote: post #94
towaway1138 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Upvote for the links. Yeah, I've been following the Portland thing a bit. To my eyes, it seems a bit like frenemy sport between PP (kind of full of themselves) and antifa (wannabe fascists without the martial skills). If this is the extreme of right-wing violence in the US at present, well, wake me if something interesting happens. Seems pretty minor compared to that prof that tried to murder someone with a bike lock…

The stories in your links cite Portland police, among other sources, without mentioning the link between several prominent police officers who were present at those protests, and the right-wing groups opposing them. I mean, we're talking about a cop literally telling someone, "we have an arrest warrant for you, but here's how you can avoid arrest ...". With that in mind, anything that Portland police says about antif…

Portland Police have stated that it is their policy to routinely reach out to both parties before such an event. You're receiving only half of a story.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#96

Post by DanBC »

towaway1138 wrote: post #6
TheOperator wrote: post #4

The author of this article is a conservative. Noticed how he went out of his way to appear politically neutral. Notice how one of the two comments to this post is attacking him on a reputational basis. This is the problem I see and likely the problem the author sees even if he's veiling it. The left wing specifically keeps disregarding other peoples views wholesale on a reputational basis. When I make posts online le…

> the uptick in politically motivated violence on the right I haven't looked closely, but it seems like the preponderance of such violence has been coming from the left these days (ignoring people with obvious mental health problems). Charlottesville is the obvious exception, but clearly overbalanced by the guy that attempted to assassinate a bunch of Congressmen at that ball game. Are there lots of examples I'm miss…

Mental illness doesn't cause violence.

The examples you're missing are the mass murders of Jewish people in a synagogue, or people in a church, or people at a concert, or the shooting of a gun into a crowd of protestors, or the driving of a car into a crowd of protestors, or the disproportionate amounts of domestic violence perpetrated by people on the right.

Somehow none of these seem to count because reasons, but the right are fundamentally dishonest when they discount this violence.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#97

Post by Theodores »

discard0000 wrote: post #24
vore wrote: post #14

This is an argument you can make regardless of what is actually going on on the ground. "The problem isn't policy, it's actually polarization" -- but the article completely fails to examine the causes of said polarization: What are people feeling angry about? Which people feel angry about what? Are those people justified in feeling angry? Are those angry people just doing it for show or are their lives being actively…

Created a throwaway account for this. As a foreigner who has spent significant time living the US, indeed this seems like the kind of mealy-mouthed, somewhat vapid meta-commentary about "unity" that offers nothing more than some soundbyte call for some abstract value (in this case "better disagreement"). It doesn't address, for example, the fact that the two political factions in America now accept different versions…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy

It is a trick. People are being deliberately played. Power depends on myths. And people believing them.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#98

Post by fulafel »

discard0000 wrote: post #24
vore wrote: post #14

This is an argument you can make regardless of what is actually going on on the ground. "The problem isn't policy, it's actually polarization" -- but the article completely fails to examine the causes of said polarization: What are people feeling angry about? Which people feel angry about what? Are those people justified in feeling angry? Are those angry people just doing it for show or are their lives being actively…

Created a throwaway account for this. As a foreigner who has spent significant time living the US, indeed this seems like the kind of mealy-mouthed, somewhat vapid meta-commentary about "unity" that offers nothing more than some soundbyte call for some abstract value (in this case "better disagreement"). It doesn't address, for example, the fact that the two political factions in America now accept different versions…

Is there really a qualitative difference? Public discourse is a vehicle to arrive at a shared understanding of (= beliefs about) facts.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#99

Post by mmsimanga »

elefanten wrote: post #13

All political mud-slinging aside, all weighing and apportioning of blame withheld, the main suggestions of the article are worthwhile. 1. Don't allow yourself to slide easily or prematurely into contempt. We do it too often these days. 2. Disagree better. You can disagree, but make your case and engage in the responses. Rhetoric has a place but it's being overused.

I wonder how much of all these issues is due to Twitter. 140 characters isn't enough for nuanced conversation.

Re: Our Culture of Contempt

#100

Post by taneq »

towaway1138 wrote: post #3

As a lifelong liberal, I've sunk into despair at the firehose of hatred coming from the left these days. And I talk to far fewer of my old lefty friends anymore--if they've made themselves awful, I just don't want to know. I'd prefer to remember them as they were. Maybe this is just a phase, but it feels like we're going to a place from which we won't return.

Same here, I used to see myself as liberal but nowadays I can't stomach the identity politics, oppression olympics and witch hunts.
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