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US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

cnn.com

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Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#151

Post by tom_mellior »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #71
benj111 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you support the ETIAS initiative? As a EU citizen I benefit from freedom of movement within the EU, why would I want extra barriers being erected between nations? I struggle to see a benefit here, just downsides. Edit: I don't seem to have been clear. I know intra EU travel will remain unencumbered, my point was to illustrate that both the parent and I have been benefiting from that unencumbered travel, so why…

Because the US requires the same nonsense from EU citizens. Requiring it from theirs creates an incentive to dropping it.

No, it does not create an incentive for the US to drop ESTA. If they dropped it, that would create an asymmetry where where US citizens traveling to Europe are treated worse than Europeans traveling to the US. Hardly any American politician would want that.

Introducing this nonsense in the EU means that it will be really hard for either side to drop it, since realistically both sides would have to negotiate to drop it together. That's harder than for the US to drop it now, unilaterally.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#152

Post by panarky »

barry-cotter wrote: post #65
zaroth wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tit for tat is a great model in pre-school. The more mature response is to investigate the underlying issues. Instead of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “We are EU, you must treat us all the same” there could be some acknowledgement that travelers from those countries are disproportionately overstayers and there is a justifiable reason to need to more closely track them. If US travelers are overstaying…

Tit for tat is a fantastic model, much like GRIM[1] because it has the advantage of being simple, clear and easily checkable. The EU as an organisation is meant to fight, as one, for its member states’ interests. Easily verified policy makes coordination far, far easier, as does legal and organisational equality. The U.K. expected the EU to throw Ireland under the bus when it came to Brexit and they didn’t because it…

Grim trigger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grim_trigger

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#153

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

cm2187 wrote: post #23
skrause wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I hear "visa" I think of mailing something to a consulate or going there personally for an application, paying a good chunk of money and waiting weeks to hopefully get approval.

But isn't the ESTA procedure exactly the electronic equivalent of that?

There tends to be a massive difference between the effort required to get a visa, and the effort required to get ESTA.

ESTA roughly as annoying as booking a plane ticket if you don't already have an account with a pre-filled profile, and usually granted instantly.

A visa request, even if done online, can easily cost you many hours filling out forms, scanning documents, etc., and often takes weeks to process.

It's also much rarer for an ESTA to be denied than for a visa to be denied.

There's a reason why passportindex.org distinguishes mostly between "real" visa requirements, and mostly pro-forma stuff like ESTA, visa-on-arrival etc.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#154

Post by dankohn1 »

rmind wrote: post #60
zaroth wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tit for tat is a great model in pre-school. The more mature response is to investigate the underlying issues. Instead of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “We are EU, you must treat us all the same” there could be some acknowledgement that travelers from those countries are disproportionately overstayers and there is a justifiable reason to need to more closely track them. If US travelers are overstaying…

Just a few points: - Tit-for-tat response is a geopolitical reality. Regardless whether you think it is pre-school model or not, this is what pretty much all countries do, as it is a perfectly rational way (and sometimes even the only way) to defend your interests. By rational I am talking about the Game Theory kind of rational. :) - You suggest to look at each EU country individually (just also keep in mind that the…

Really great animated illustration of tit-for-tat vs. other strategies: https://ncase.me/trust/

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#155

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel »

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #90
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which EU countries do NOT require an ESTA to travel to the US?

To my understanding it was only Bulgaria, Romania, Cyprus, Poland and ....shoot, I always forget the 5th one, anyway, I'll edit this when I look it up. That needed one.

I believe these countries need real visa. Germany etc. still need ESTA.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#156

Post by geggam »

rmind wrote: post #60
zaroth wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tit for tat is a great model in pre-school. The more mature response is to investigate the underlying issues. Instead of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “We are EU, you must treat us all the same” there could be some acknowledgement that travelers from those countries are disproportionately overstayers and there is a justifiable reason to need to more closely track them. If US travelers are overstaying…

Just a few points: - Tit-for-tat response is a geopolitical reality. Regardless whether you think it is pre-school model or not, this is what pretty much all countries do, as it is a perfectly rational way (and sometimes even the only way) to defend your interests. By rational I am talking about the Game Theory kind of rational. :) - You suggest to look at each EU country individually (just also keep in mind that the…

Rent a car. EU countries dont even treat each other equally.

Stones in glass houses ?

Territorial restrictions The vehicle selection can restrict travel to certain countries. For a description of these restrictions on admission, the countries are divided into three zones.

Zone 1: Andorra, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Gibraltar, Great Britain, Ireland, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Sweden, Switzerland, Spain and Vatican

Zone 2: Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia

Zone 3: All countries which are not in zone 1 or 2.

Jaguar, Maserati, Land Rover and Porsche cars as well as all luxury cars may enter only in Zone 1 countries. Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen cars up to group L are allowed to enter only in Zone 1 countries as well as Poland and the Czech Republic, while X* cars are only allowed to enter in Zone 1 countries. Vehicles of all other brands may enter only in the zones 1 and 2.

Trucks, vans, people carriers and minibuses of all brands may only be driven in zones 1 and 2.

Entry into any country in zone 3 is not permitted.

In case of offence against cross border and territorial restrictions all insurances lose their validity.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#157

Post by panarky »

ketzu wrote: post #41
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia ya, but Canada? The last time I visited Canada by car, I didn’t need electronic travel authorization, so there must be some exemption rather than all visitors.

Canadian eTA only applies to arrival by plane.

Last week I flew from New York to Montreal, and I didn't have to get a travel authorization or pay a fee. I just showed up with my passport, all very easy.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#158

Post by jkaplowitz »

virtualwhys wrote: post #128
jkaplowitz wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due to the nature of the Schengen area and the greater independence of an EU member state compared to a US state, there's no real way to track whether a US citizen overstays more in some parts of the Schengen area than others. And I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that at least some of the EU member states in question are on track to join Schengen before the time ETIAS launches in 2021.

> there's no real way to track whether a US citizen overstays more in some parts of the Schengen area than others. Doesn't matter, it's 90 days applied to the entire Schengen area, regardless of which member state(s) you visited.

Yes, but the person I was responding to found it relevant whether Americans are more likely to overstay in particular EU countries such as the ones on which the US imposes visa requirements. The only possible tracking (for short-term entries) is at the Schengen level, as you say; the US does not require visas from most Schengen nationals. But the US does require ESTA+VWP from them if they don't seek a visa, and this is basically analogous to ETIAS.

Re: US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021

#160

Post by panarky »

rmind wrote: post #10

The article mixes two seaparate issues: - EU is introducing ETIAS, an electronic authorisation system which is pretty much modeled after the US ESTA system (used by visa-free nationals). It will apply to all countries which currently enjoy the visa-free regime with the EU and that includes USA. So, technically it is not a visa, but your details will be pre-checked and it will cost €7 (compared to $14 for US ESTA). Ir…

> Ironically, after Brexit, this requirement will also apply to UK

If by "Ironically" you mean "Therefore".

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