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Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

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Re: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

#171

Post by codezero »

18pfsmt wrote: post #162
codezero wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that if a journalist interviews a controversial figure they lose credibility? Was there something about those interviews that made you determine she is dubious?

Watch the interviews. She does not call them out, no matter how ridiculous or unsubstantiated the claims being made are. It's utterly ridiculous. An interviewer is supposed to push back when claims are made that contradict reality. Chris Wallace's interview with Stephen Miller for how it's done.

Thanks, I’ll check them out, apologies for not putting in an effort before commenting.

One problem I feel exists (no evidence) is that sometimes the options are fluffy interview or none at all, and the interviewer is incentivized not to dig out the truth but to get the guest. It’s a bummer. I feel like the blame lays on the guest more than the interviewer because they tend to have the power in that dynamic.

Re: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

#172

Post by haha9993 »

calvinbhai wrote: post #158
tdb7893 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being sympathetic isn't a crime. Also covering things as a journalist not only isn't a crime but also is protected in many forms by the Constitution. Americans are very very very touchy about possible freedom of speech and freedom of the press violations. I'm not sure what crime these journalists are going to commit that makes us need to track them.

Curious: So, if for some reason, there are journalists that are creating content for groups/regimes that are anti-America (lets say ISIS, Assad, Ahmedinajad or Jong Un), would that journalist never been seen with any kind of suspicion in the US?

classic straw man argument. The immigrants in question are not ISIS and are not anti-america.

Re: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

#173

Post by throw2016 »

This is some sort of collective 'memory loss' on these issues. Activists and journalists have been put under surveillance, infiltrated, harassed, put on lists and singled out at airports.[1] The harassment of keystone activists and protestors is ongoing [2], Laura Poitras harassment and surveillance is well documented [3][4], and evidence keeps popping out but there is some sort of dissonance and rationalization in play.

After the Snowden revelations this should not surprise anyone but most articles on these issues have bland assertions of 'law' disconnected from events on the ground. Contrast that with articles on China, Russia that are met with indignation and outrage for the exact same issues.

Its like using 'moderation' as a euphemism for censorship when it happens here, while continuing to shout censorship in other cases. If China or Russia did this it would be unilaterally condemned as totalitarian and oppression but because we did it there must be some 'rule of law' reason. People who care about these issues would be outraged wherever it happens. Selective outrage gives oppressive governments a pass and dilutes fundamental issues people claim to care about.

[1] https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-speech/rights-protesters/6-wa...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/sep/20/keystone...

[3] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/11/government-documents-s...

[4] https://www.democracynow.org/shows/2012/4/20

Re: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

#174

Post by rjf72 »

cr1895 wrote: post #120
rjf72 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caravans of thousands of people don't generally just organically form and find themselves able to transit thousands of miles. Even if you set aside the extensive funding required, there are some very serious logistical issues involved in this sort of thing. The caravan had already successfully and illegally overrun the border between Mexico and Guatemala. [1] It's reasonable to believe they aimed to attempt to do the…

>Aiding a signal unlawful entry into the US is a significant felony subject to up to 10 years in prison. Upon first glance this doesn't seem true. Your link says that this punishment exists only if the alien is already convicted of an aggravated felony.

Check the referenced 1182(a)(3) [1] regarding excluded aliens. The most direct would be 1182(a)(3)(A)(ii) which prohibits the assistance of any alien whom there is sufficient reason to believe plans to engage in any unlawful activity. Unlawful entry/residence is, of course, unlawful activity. The fact that much of the caravan had already done that, by force of numbers, at the Mexico-Guatemala border while chanting things such as "One way or another, we will pass!" offers more than "reasonable ground to believe" such actions were also planned for the US and US border.

The reason the legalese is so obtuse is because it also encompasses aiding or assisting in the legal entry of an alien for whom there is "reasonable ground to believe" will engage in unlawful activity.

[1] - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182

Re: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

#175

Post by azeotropic »

thinkcontext wrote: post #149
meowface wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make much sense. They would just interview the journalists after the event, and maybe do some follow-up interviews with a few. They wouldn't tag their passports for increased screenings, interrogate them at every border crossing, etc. They're treating the journalists like they helped organize the violence. To me it just seems like a way to harass and disrupt journalists trying to closely cover the story.

Don't forget the part about going through their devices.

The part where journalists insinuated their devices might have been searched but admitted it didn't look like anyone had touched them?

Re: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

#176

Post by azeotropic »

danesparza wrote: post #59
azeotropic wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds most like a criminal investigation into a particular violent incident at the border and the investigators are trying to follow the money.

This is incorrect. A criminal investigation would be legal. A quote directly from the article sums up the counterpoint nicely: “We are a criminal investigation agency, we’re not an intelligence agency,” the Homeland Security source told NBC 7 Investigates. “We can’t create dossiers on people and they’re creating dossiers. This is an abuse of the Border Search Authority.”

An unnamed source?

Pray tell, what is the line between creating a dossier and conducting an investigation? When does a collection of evidence of a given suspects involvement (or non-involvement) become a dossier?

Although I don't believe it's relevant to this case, the unnamed source is wrong. The DHS absolutely is an intelligence agency. It even has an office (DHS Office of Intelligence and Analysis) dedicated to synthesizing and disseminating the intelligence it collects. Intelligence collected by CBP is part of that mandate.

Re: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

#177

Post by azeotropic »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #102
azeotropic wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds most like a criminal investigation into a particular violent incident at the border and the investigators are trying to follow the money.

I don't think so. Pulling a journalist in once to ask for information would fit with that. But flagging them so that all future border crossings result in automatic detainment for questioning can't be seen that way. I can only read that as surveillance and harassment.

Look at it from the perspective of an investigator who believes that there are Americans providing financial assistance to a caravan that turned violent, as well as the ordinary customs enforcement duty to ensure that large amounts of cash do not cross the border. If you don't know which Americans were involved, but suspect several who were present at a particular event, it may make perfect sense to question them every time you see them at the border, and search them (at the very least) for money. The fact that a lot of the intrusive questions that the reporter complained about were financial in nature (e.g. "Do you own or rent your home?" or "Who pays for your travel?") seem entirely consistent with this mission.

I agree that it is surveillance, but you seem to forget that that's one of the things law enforcement does in an investigation.

Re: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

#178

Post by azeotropic »

ModernMech wrote: post #133
creaghpatr wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reality is more far important than optics. Contextualizing it doesn't change the facts.

The reality is that a journalist for a publication critical of the president was murdered by a brutal dictator, and the president shrugged his shoulders. The facts are that Donald Trump has attacked individual journalists for writing pieces that are critical of him. Further facts include that the president has lied about the migrant caravan in question as a way to win political support by claiming it contains middle…

Come now, the reality of the Khashoggi situation is that he was not a journalist at all but an an agent of Qatar and a client of the former head of Saudi intelligence, who sometimes phoned in opinion columns to the Washington Post dictated by his foreign paymasters.

So that you do not misunderstand, I'm not saying that any of this excuses Khashoggi's murder. I'm saying that it's disingenuous to suggest that those who ordered his killing were motivated be some sort of generalized antipathy to journalism.

Re: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

#179

Post by azeotropic »

longerthoughts wrote: post #137
creaghpatr wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are investigating or otherwise overseeing the border, would it not be useful to have a list of journalists who are actively gathering on-the-ground intel (for their jobs)? This is a weak attempt to make it look like the Obama era abuses a la Sheryl Attkinson. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/01/29/sharyl_at...

But they're not just tracking them so they can reach out and seek further details as part of an investigation. They're gathering information in excess of what they would need for that purpose and using the information they have to flag them for additional screenings, detain them, and in at least one mentioned case turn them away at the border.

That was the Mexican government that turned a person away at the border, not CBP. If CBP could make the Mexican government turn away arbitrary persons at the Mexican border, don't you think they might have started with caravans from Honduras?

Re: Leaked Documents Show the U.S. Tracking Journalists Through a Secret Database

#180

Post by ionised »

pacoWebConsult wrote: post #92
Spooky23 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. All of those things had significant policy impacts. It’s no coincidence that massive Russian influence campaigns that put a buffoon in the White House followed their usurpation of Snowden and Wikileaks. Fast and furious helped cement the right wing distrust of government and gin up the crazy gun people. Iran-Contra undermined the global strategy for dealing with terrorist incidents by refusing to negotiat…

You do realize the CIA was responsible for the Snowden NSA leaks (their direct adversary that has the legal authority to bulk collect data on American communication networks) because they are also implicated in massive umbrella surveillance of American and foreign communications, and not for a legal purpose.

> You do realize the CIA was responsible for the Snowden NSA leaks

You'll have to provide proof to back up that claim, otherwise there's no reason to believe it.

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