Can fake names create bias in interviewing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#91

Post by tha_nose » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

gburt wrote: post #29

manfredo wrote: post #20

I suspect many companies wouldn't use this as it would make affirmative hiring policies more difficult. For example, recruiters at my company curate lists of names that are majority female, black, or Hispanic (pulled from the census bureau) in order to try and determine which candidates are diverse. Recruiters at my company aren't explicitly told to hit certain quotas, but they are given larger bonuses for diverse hi…

> Recruiters at my company aren't explicitly told to hit certain quotas, but they are given larger bonuses for diverse hires and they do have targets for certain percentages of diverse candidate. I'm definitely not a lawyer and I live nowhere near the Bay Area, but by my reading of most of these laws, this is illegal. I realize we often interpret these issues differently depending on who they effect, but this sounds…

It most definitely is not illegal. Many colleges have race and gender based quota systems. Governments have race and gender quota systems. Many federal, state and local governments set aside X percentage of their contracts solely for minority or female owned businesses.

Whether this is right or wrong is another debate. But race, gender or "diversity" hiring or recruiting certainly isn't illegal. It happens all the time.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#92

Post by aerovistae » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

"infinite avalanche" is a commonplace, boring phrase? Wonder where he's from.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#93

Post by malvosenior » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

OpieCunningham wrote: post #41

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd hate to work somewhere knowing I was hired because the color of my skin and not my abilities. maybe less of an issue in non-brainy jobs, but in Tech I would feel more insecure not knowing if I got the job to fill a quota. This sounds rather disgusting to me.

Subconscious bias means your concern is applicable regardless of your skin color or gender. If you’re a white male, you could easily have been hired simply because of your skin color and gender and not your abilities. Effectively, your point is moot. Maybe worry less about the thoughts and feelings of who hired you and focus on doing your best work.

As an under represented minority in tech, I couldn't agree more with the parent post. I never want to bring up my race because I want to be judged on the output of my skills and not be propped up because someone thinks I add diversity points to the team.

Sadly I've had to bring up my genetic background recently as a pure survival mechanism because people keep telling me to my face that they don't want to hire white men so I need to let them know I'm not white so I don't get instantly filtered out.

The whole situation is ridiculous as I never had any problems with my race before "diversity" became talking point #1 (as a developer, raising money is another story).

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#94

Post by stcredzero » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

jquinby wrote: post #50

throwawaymath wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

stcredzero? "Urban high school kid" isn't jumping out at me. ...Actually, nothing jumps out at me at all. I'm not sure what to make of it. Why do they read high school kid out of that?

I have to confess I dug into the comments before I realized this wasn't St. Credzero and having made a mental note go to look him up.

SaintCredZero puts me in the mind of an ex-high-end burglar who gets recruited by the authorities to solve crimes.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#95

Post by eli » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #62

eli wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deciding where to locate a recruiting event is different than deciding which applicants to move to the next stage.

One could say that deciding where to hold recruiting events dictates which people go from the "zeroth stage" of not being in the application pool at all to th first stage of resume review.

I don't think holding recruiting events in a place where you ONLY expect to find one kind of person is a good idea for a lot of reasons.

But I think there's a different moral and legal obligation as an employer to people who have applied to a job versus those who haven't.

Big difference between having a table at a HBCU recruiting event versus sorting resumes based on what race you think the applicant is.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#96

Post by malvosenior » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

haha9993 wrote: post #53

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd hate to work somewhere knowing I was hired because the color of my skin and not my abilities. maybe less of an issue in non-brainy jobs, but in Tech I would feel more insecure not knowing if I got the job to fill a quota. This sounds rather disgusting to me.

if you think hiring is a fair meritocracy you are naive. Good looking people tend get hired more often. Get higher salaries. And getting hired is often about good your network is. And the richer you are or your parents are, the likelier you are to get an internship or a coveted job because you are around the "right" people. And there is also Cronyism, which I have realized is more prevalent that I thought as my caree…

And now we can add yet another mechanism that destroys meritocracy by being openly prejudiced against people based on their skin color and gender. Only the old forms of advantage still exist. The rich white men are still getting jobs based on their networks, but now poor and middle class white men are rejected purely based on who they are, not what they've done.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#97

Post by jfk13 » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:13 PM UTC

manfredo wrote: post #30

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd hate to work somewhere knowing I was hired because the color of my skin and not my abilities. maybe less of an issue in non-brainy jobs, but in Tech I would feel more insecure not knowing if I got the job to fill a quota. This sounds rather disgusting to me.

Again, I really hope it's clear that we don't deliberately hire unqualified candidate because they're considered diverse. It only affects resume reviews and phone interviews which are basically coin tosses.

If those stages are "basically coin tosses", why do you bother with them? It'd be quicker and cheaper to toss a coin.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#98

Post by yongjik » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:15 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #96

haha9993 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you think hiring is a fair meritocracy you are naive. Good looking people tend get hired more often. Get higher salaries. And getting hired is often about good your network is. And the richer you are or your parents are, the likelier you are to get an internship or a coveted job because you are around the "right" people. And there is also Cronyism, which I have realized is more prevalent that I thought as my caree…

And now we can add yet another mechanism that destroys meritocracy by being openly prejudiced against people based on their skin color and gender. Only the old forms of advantage still exist. The rich white men are still getting jobs based on their networks, but now poor and middle class white men are rejected purely based on who they are, not what they've done.

Well, on the brighter side, when a poor/middle-class white guy gets hired, they no longer have to suffer the soul-crushing agony of "Did I get hired because of my skin color? What will my coworkers think of me?"

What is good for the goose...

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#99

Post by dragonwriter » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:17 PM UTC

tha_nose wrote: post #91

gburt wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Recruiters at my company aren't explicitly told to hit certain quotas, but they are given larger bonuses for diverse hires and they do have targets for certain percentages of diverse candidate. I'm definitely not a lawyer and I live nowhere near the Bay Area, but by my reading of most of these laws, this is illegal. I realize we often interpret these issues differently depending on who they effect, but this sounds…

It most definitely is not illegal. Many colleges have race and gender based quota systems. Governments have race and gender quota systems. Many federal, state and local governments set aside X percentage of their contracts solely for minority or female owned businesses. Whether this is right or wrong is another debate. But race, gender or "diversity" hiring or recruiting certainly isn't illegal. It happens all the ti…

> It most definitely is not illegal.

Yes it is.

> Many colleges have race and gender based quota systems.

Quota systems have been repeatedly struck down in college admissions as illegal.

> Governments have race and gender quota systems.

Quota systems for public education (including higher education) and employment have also repeatedly been ruled illegal.

Re: Can fake names create bias in interviewing?

#100

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Mar 07, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

cimmanom wrote: post #85

sokoloff wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand. Whether the candidate, a researcher, or my in-house recruiter mangles the name, the end effect is the same.

Why? I can get being pissed if someone's misrepresenting their identity (or annoyed if they're representing it inconsistently) as a job seeker. But AFAICT this is about letting the candidate's performance be mentally/emotionally isolated from all the baggage that comes along with their history. It doesn't even preclude screening people out based on history before this anonymized interview. You can then put it back to…

I guess my perspective is shaped by the fact that I'm likely hiring very senior folks, where I'm going to look through my network to see if I know anyone who knows them. For that purpose, doing the evaluation "semi-blind" and then later putting the real name/profile back on to do network and reference checks is even OK. (Even in that case, the real hiring decision is subject to skew by knowing the full details of the candidate, and often the resume/work history alone is uniquely identifying.)

I agree that it's 100% fair that we should be evaluating software engineers on software engineering abilities not names (and not even colleges to be honest).