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Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

nationalgeographic.com

91–100 of 104 posts

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#91

I found this paragraph really stunning -- But until the concept of cave archaeology began to take shape in the 1980s, archaeologists were more interested in monumental architecture and intact artifacts than they were in analyzing the residues and materials found in and around objects. When Balankanché was excavated in 1959, caves were still mapped by hand in the dark and artifacts were routinely removed from their si…

I have never met a scientist that came across a discovery and said, "Wow, this is a huge discovery and we're not even close to being equipped enough to process it correctly, lets just seal it up again and wait." But that was what happened here. It is so amazing to get the chance to look deeply into these things with more capable technology.

Yet, I read a lot of archeology books in my former days and almost all of them said modern archeology is founded on digging test pits and strips, to avoid complete site exposure unless circumstances demand it, since future science will be able to exploit the un-disturbed state of the site to do better science.

Archeologists do the LEAST digging possible nowadays. Its the norm to leave it the hell alone, not the exception.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#92
post #4

"Explorers needed to crawl for hours just to reach first of seven offering chambers"... followed by a shot of one of them, flat of his stomach, clawing at the surface and just barely squeezing through, head turned sideways. I am not a claustrofobic person, but this is... damn... this feels suicidal. Makes you realize that some people are wired way differently than others. Edit - https://imgur.com/EHrwHs3.jpg

So wait? Ancient people carried valuable things through those enormously inconvenient tiny little holes and then created small hoards deep in the caves? Was there maybe an easier route that has fallen away through the centuries and this is what's left? Or was there perhaps a religious belief here because honestly, if you were trying to hide things, burying stuff sounds just as effective and quite a bit less dangerous…

The fit may have been easier for them, due to:

1. Shorter / thinner stature compared to today's explorers 2. The caves having compressed / become narrower, even slightly, in the last 1000 years

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#93
post #91

I found this paragraph really stunning -- But until the concept of cave archaeology began to take shape in the 1980s, archaeologists were more interested in monumental architecture and intact artifacts than they were in analyzing the residues and materials found in and around objects. When Balankanché was excavated in 1959, caves were still mapped by hand in the dark and artifacts were routinely removed from their si…

I have never met a scientist that came across a discovery and said, "Wow, this is a huge discovery and we're not even close to being equipped enough to process it correctly, lets just seal it up again and wait." But that was what happened here. It is so amazing to get the chance to look deeply into these things with more capable technology. Yet, I read a lot of archeology books in my former days and almost all of the…

> Archeologists do the LEAST digging possible nowadays

Surely "LEAST" would be doing only non-invasive sensing, and rescue digs? Many digs still aren't.

> digging test pits and strips, to avoid complete site exposure

And oh, the care taken when digging and refilling pits, to minimize, for instance, the impact on the site microbiome... err, the site microwhatsit? Picture the careful brain surgeon, picking out his dropped bits of pepperoni and cheese, licking them off his greasy fingers, patting the cranial flap down, and beaming proudly.

Archeologists celebrating their standard of care... while being largely unfamiliar with even the current states of research in genomics, remote sensing, computer analysis, robotics, and much else, let alone their forseeable futures... Yes, jewler's pics are better than miner's pickaxes, careful troweling than careful dynamiting, and hand-held DLSR visual-light photos better than hand-held sketchbooks... but by how much? Compared to what's coming over the next hundred years?

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#94

I don't know anything about this team, but the ideal procedure would be minimal disturbance of this site, with minimal removal of artifacts from the site. Organic material for carbon dating, great. There are several principles that one mist follow. Archeology is a destructive science: you can't dig the same pit twice, you can't remove artifacts a second time. So the first principle is: document everything, and destro…

My undergraduate education was in archeology at UCLA. I did an honors thesis analyzing Classic Period Mayan burial remains. I've also excavated Mayan sites in Belize. I stand by what I said, despite perverse HN downvotes.

It's good that you have knowledge to contribute here. And I understand how provocative downvotes can be. Nevertheless, please follow the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). That's actually just why we have that guideline.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valuable objects; difficult to reach; no resources for living (dark, cold; no food or water). All point to having a very good, very impractical reason for going there. Religion fills the bill very nicely?

Sounds like a stash of stolen goods to me. And that's actually a practical reason for going there. OTOH religion wants to be accessible to the people. They build temples and such to draw people in, not make them crawl into a deep scary hole where they have a pile of random stuff.

Folks hide valuables too - for fear of their being stolen. And rituals often have special places for the initiated, excluding the public. So not a slam-dunk that's its stolen stuff.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#96
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never met a scientist that came across a discovery and said, "Wow, this is a huge discovery and we're not even close to being equipped enough to process it correctly, lets just seal it up again and wait." But that was what happened here. It is so amazing to get the chance to look deeply into these things with more capable technology. Yet, I read a lot of archeology books in my former days and almost all of the…

> Archeologists do the LEAST digging possible nowadays Surely "LEAST" would be doing only non-invasive sensing, and rescue digs? Many digs still aren't. > digging test pits and strips, to avoid complete site exposure And oh, the care taken when digging and refilling pits, to minimize, for instance, the impact on the site microbiome... err, the site microwhatsit? Picture the careful brain surgeon, picking out his drop…

> Surely "LEAST" would be doing only non-invasive sensing, and rescue digs? Many digs still aren't.

You're nitpicking and you know it.

>> digging test pits and strips, to avoid complete site exposure

> And oh, the care taken when digging and refilling pits, to minimize, for instance, the impact on the site microbiome... err, the site microwhatsit? Picture the careful brain surgeon, picking out his dropped bits of pepperoni and cheese, licking them off his greasy fingers, patting the cranial flap down, and beaming proudly.

This is a shit comparison, and you know it.

> Archeologists celebrating their standard of care... while being largely unfamiliar with even the current states of research in genomics, remote sensing, computer analysis, robotics, and much else, let alone their forseeable futures... Yes, jewler's pics are better than miner's pickaxes, careful troweling than careful dynamiting, and hand-held DLSR visual-light photos better than hand-held sketchbooks... but by how much? Compared to what's coming over the next hundred years?

This part is kinda incomprehensible but it seems like you're being critical of how archaeologists apply innovative tools and methods in their work. You don't know, however, that archaeologists are arguably the most interdisciplinary researchers you can imagine, and use methods from all sorts of other fields to address questions of archaeological concern. There is (in my experience, anyway) lots of care to apply these methods in ways that are ethical, in ways that are respectful towards local communities, and in ways that meet the practical constraints that archaeology faces (rugged terrain, slow pace, low funding, limited timeframe, non-reproducible data collection, coordination of methodologically-diverse projects, etc). No tool is recognized to be useful in its own right, it has to be adapted to suit the circumstances and goals of archaeological projects.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valuable objects; difficult to reach; no resources for living (dark, cold; no food or water). All point to having a very good, very impractical reason for going there. Religion fills the bill very nicely?

Sounds like a stash of stolen goods to me. And that's actually a practical reason for going there. OTOH religion wants to be accessible to the people. They build temples and such to draw people in, not make them crawl into a deep scary hole where they have a pile of random stuff.

Some religions are about secrets, not persuasion.

Mithraism was a popular underground (literally) religion among the Roman army. And the Hebrews weren’t about letting people traipse through the holy of holies.

I agree that religion is probably overused in these explanations, but it’s plausible.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#98
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My undergraduate education was in archeology at UCLA. I did an honors thesis analyzing Classic Period Mayan burial remains. I've also excavated Mayan sites in Belize. I stand by what I said, despite perverse HN downvotes.

It's good that you have knowledge to contribute here. And I understand how provocative downvotes can be. Nevertheless, please follow the site guidelines ( https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html ). That's actually just why we have that guideline.

right. got it. never talk about how dysfunctional HNs commenting voting system is.

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should they not be using remote-controlled drones first and 3D-map the tunnels first before going in with humans?

Cool idea, but what drone would you actually be able to use for spelunking?

That is the actual question: Why aren't there spider-like (or some other suitable form) drones by now, for exploring enclosed environments with uneven terrain? Or are there?

Re: Maya ritual cave ‘untouched’ for 1k years stuns archaeologists

#100

I'm curious about how they decide this is a religious site. The artifacts have images on them, but that can't be the only indicator of why they were there can it? Why build pyramids and other things above ground but then make people crawl deep into a hole to have a small religious site? Isn't it more likely people of lower status were forced to live underground and this is their stash of valuables? - to give just one…

"Religious site" always seems like a cop-out to me, like saying "we don't know what this was used for, must have been a religious site" , but since I'm not an archaeologist or historian, I have to trust that the people who actually are those things know what they're doing and know how to determine if something truly was a religious site or not.

Yes. I have the same reaction when I see an old site called a 'temple'. Who -knows- what the frame of mind was of a culture thousands of years ago (particularly if nothing's written)? Often it seems like just another way of implying 'pre-scientific', 'magical', 'savage'... less-developed than us.

A more -practical- explanation seems more plausible in many cases. E.g. Gobekli looks -educational- to my eyes; I see multiple classrooms.

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