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Piano Tuning

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Re: Piano Tuning

#51

Post by ramshorns »

baddox wrote: post #7

This is certainly a fun way to introduce twelve-tone equal temperament to someone who knows enough math to understand logarithms but is new to music theory. It works well, because the only elementary music theory claims that we need to accept without explanation are that there are twelve different note names that repeat in the same order and that each note of a given name is twice the frequency of the previous note o…

> Okay, not quite. You actually also need to know that the frequency ratios of all pairs of keys n keys apart should be the same, for all n.

We could have made a different second assumption instead, and remembered that not only is the note an octave higher twice the frequency, but also, the note a perfect fifth higher is one-and-a-half times the frequency. Propagating these axioms to tune all the notes would lead to Pythagorean tuning, which has some nicer-sounding intervals but makes playing in certain keys sound bad, since you can't make all n-key intervals exactly the same size.

Re: Piano Tuning

#52

Post by mnemotronic »

I think that knowing frequencies and hearing frequencies still leaves one a long way from being able to tweak a string to match that frequency.

Question for piano tuners: Does tuning the piano require multiple iterations? When re-tuning my 12-string to or from an open (where some or all of the strings are tuned to a specific chord) I sometimes have to go back and tweak each string a couple times. I think this is due to the change in stress on the top and neck of the guitar.

Re: Piano Tuning

#53

Post by js2 »

mitchtbaum wrote: post #43

Every time we had our piano tuner scheduled to come was a special occasion. When he'd come, he'd have this aura about him which made his intense disposition seem fitting for the work he was doing. My mom felt it important to prepare us for the two day process to be without our piano and to tread lightly as he worked through his vast toolset of tuning forks on each key with his most amazing one, his ear. To watch him…

Two days? Our tuner does the job in about an hour every six months on a modern upright. I'll allow differnces between tuners and pianos but two days seems a lot?

Re: Piano Tuning

#54

Post by yarosv »

mnemotronic wrote: post #52

I think that knowing frequencies and hearing frequencies still leaves one a long way from being able to tweak a string to match that frequency. Question for piano tuners: Does tuning the piano require multiple iterations? When re-tuning my 12-string to or from an open (where some or all of the strings are tuned to a specific chord) I sometimes have to go back and tweak each string a couple times. I think this is due…

It does. When I tune (warning - I am novice) I tune middle octaves, then go up and down the scale with octave intervals. And then check the whole instruments tuning notes that sound off. String itself stretches and loses the pitch a little sometimes, especially if it was out of tune by quarter tone. But more importantly string peg that holds the string is just screwed into the hardwood board. So when you tune it, you still have some room for it to settle. Even slight press with tuning hammer on the peg can result in big difference in tune. Especially on high notes.

Re: Piano Tuning

#55

Post by [deleted] »

jacquesm wrote: post #13

Once, long ago I landed in a house in Poznan, Poland which had the wreck of a Bosendorfer baby grand piano sitting in one of the rooms. I had a lot of time on my hand and tried to figure out the story behind the piano. After tracing the owner it turned out that he was trying to 'restore' the piano but in the process had butchered it and had sent parts all over Poland for refurbishing. For some strange reason the Acti…

[deleted]

Re: Piano Tuning

#56

Post by frankhorrigan »

phlakaton wrote: post #49

For those of you that want to go deep on this subject (of which this article only superficially covers), I commend Stuart Isacoff's entertaining book _Temperament_ (Vintage 2009) to your attention. A wonkier, somewhat more no-nonsense treatment is J. Murray Barbour's _Tuning and Temperament_ (Dover 2004).

I also really appreciated "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony (and Why You Should Care)" by Ross Duffin.

Re: Piano Tuning

#57

Post by baddox »

stfwn wrote: post #23
baddox wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the usual explanation I read, but I don’t fully buy it. Yes, two notes an octave apart have lots of overtones in common. But that’s true of two notes a perfect fifth apart as well. Or even better, two notes an octave and a fifth apart.

For this exact reason, in music theory, the perfect fifth is seen as a note that amplifies/emboldens the root note of a chord and does not add a particular harmonic color. In jazz it's often left out to open up chords more (i.e. not muddy the frequency distribution with too many adjacent notes unless you explicitly want the powerful sound). In pop the nondescript nature is used to create a strong sense of grounding i…

For sure. It still doesn't explain why the octave is the specific point where the cycle of pitch perception repeats. The perfect fifth is very consonant, for sure, but there is no "perfect fifth equivalence" in any musical traditional as far as I know.

Re: Piano Tuning

#59

Post by clarry »

wedowhatwedo wrote: post #50
clarry wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And, most importantly to me, since it’s the question I can find the least solid information on: why do we take for granted that one note with twice the frequency of another note sounds so similar that we call both notes by the same name? I have a pretty good understanding of other details of music theory, but I’ve never gotten a straight answer on why (and indeed to what extent) octave equivalence exists. I don't k…

I disagree. A sine wave has no overtones but we can still easily perceive the octave notes. Also overtones don't have to be even multiples of the fundamental. Many organs have stops that are not multiples of the fundamental. 2-2⁄3′, 1-3⁄5' are common flute stops.

> I disagree. A sine wave has no overtones but we can still easily perceive the octave notes.

Sure we can. Does the explanation given above require that we shouldn't? Of course, laying sines an octave apart is a good first step to building a simple additive synth that doesn't sound as dull as a pure sine. In that case, are you adding a note or an overtone? If anything, to me this only makes the given explanation more credible. The relationship between common naturally occurring harmonic overtones and the octave.

> Also overtones don't have to be even multiples of the fundamental. Many organs have stops that are not multiples of the fundamental. 2-2⁄3′, 1-3⁄5' are common flute stops.

Sure, there are dissonant sounding instruments as well as instruments that can sound more like a chord when a single note is played. Of course, we can synthesize anything. On the other hand, many instruments are prone to producing overtones that increasingly deviate from the harmonic series. And many tricks are employed to try and reduce that effect, because it doesn't sound good.

Re: Piano Tuning

#60

Post by scrozier »

bloak wrote: post #33
sureaboutthis wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a friend, Jim, who was blind. He went to school to become a piano tuner. Once, we were at another friend's house who had a piano. The friend played a short piece on the piano and Jim mentioned that it could use some tuning and went on to claim he had perfect pitch hearing. Well, of course, we had to test him. We hit one key. "That's D!", he said. We hit another. "That's G!" With a smirk, my friend pressed three…

Of course, once he'd got the first note right, he didn't need perfect pitch to get the second one. Is there a reset procedure for testing perfect pitch? Some confusing sequence of slidey trombone sounds? Just listen to Shepard tones for a while?

In our church choir, if the conductor wants us to "forget" the key we've been singing in, he just has the accompanist lean both arms onto the piano keyboard all at once.
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