Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#221

Post by ionised » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 12:58 PM UTC

thisisweirdok wrote: post #114

math_and_stuff wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree that a paradigm shift is required. Thankfully, it seems we are in the middle of one. There is sustained momentum, from tech workers, the press, congress, human rights orgs, etc. to work together to hold them accountable. And we are already making huge impacts. And, if press over the last six months (especially the NYT Rubin expose) is any indicator, Google's management is no longer viewed as benevo…

It's not big enough or fast to stop Google in China.

Not with that attitude, no.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#222

Post by ionised » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:08 PM UTC

MRD85 wrote: post #217

PavlovsCat wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It absolutely starts with not being complicit though, and not diminishing a moral decision as being valuable in and of itself.

By leaving Google, one of the most powerful tech companies in the world, the engineers are lowering the mean moral compass of the engineering base. Additionally, leaving a secure, well-paid role in political protest takes a certain amount of privilege. My father left an amazing job in protest over immoral actions and I can assure you that it had huge financial impacts on my life growing up. I respect him for his deci…

> By leaving Google, one of the most powerful tech companies in the world, the engineers are lowering the mean moral compass of the engineering base.

Good.

It's not like a good, ethical developer is going to change things from the inside. Companies are not democracies, they are dictatorships.

So what if Google has no good and moral developers left? At least it will become more obvious what Google truly is while the 'good' developers can make a positive contribution elsewhere. It was clearly never going to happen at Google anyway, not with a incentives a publicly-traded company has.

I would much prefer Google to be manned entirely by the kinds of people I wouldn't dream of inviting into my home. I'm already against the company's existence, so Google having nobody left with a shred of integrity or backbone would make it a whole lot easier to argue for the company's demise, in whatever shape that may come.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#223

Post by ionised » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:09 PM UTC

chivas wrote: post #31

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I'm wondering which part of dragonfly makes you so unhappy. Is it the censorship itself or the censorship without telling user about it?

In human culture, when a company claims it supports a free and open internet but makes moves to support a closed, surveilled and censored internet, that is generally considered a dick move.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#224

Post by ionised » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:11 PM UTC

fireattack wrote: post #162

math_and_stuff wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this included Google literally building a blacklist containing the terms 'human rights' and 'student protest' and ensuring that the Chinese Communist Party could track Chinese citizens' queries by their phone number.

I don't get it. As a Chinese, I can say that the absence of Google (even a highly censored version) will (and have already) only make it worse. >Google literally building a blacklist Every single search engine or social media in China already has that. Yes, Google likely will build one for their services if they plan to enter China. But it's not like they come up, or "actively" help with this idea.

How would Google profiting from a tightly controlled Chinese internet make it better?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#225

Post by ionised » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

HAL9000Ti wrote: post #96

jayd16 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While its not necessarily my opinion, the issue is not about working in/with China, its about building a censored search engine.

Microsoft has a censored search engine live in China right now, where is the backlash against them?

Nobody expected any better from Microsoft. That's a lost cause.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#226

Post by lm28469 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:17 PM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #35

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

> Google will move forward with expansion into China. Anyone who doesn't believe that is frankly naive. I agree. Google's only care is for profit.

That's what every private company care for.

They can try to hide it, disguise it, make it easy to forget, at the end of the day if they don't make money everything is over.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#227

Post by zhte415 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:27 PM UTC

n1231231231234 wrote: post #55

hcnews wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing is that Google search engine is already censored in various parts of the world. E.g. 1. Right to be forgotten. 2. DMCA. (differing views on this). 3. Russia (?)

1) is different in quality. possibly 2), too, but I don't know enought about it. in CH, search engines are state-censored for political reasons - mainly to keep in power a semi-dictatorship. the right to be forgotten was implemented to protect individual rights. one may or may not agree with such a protection. however, the motivation was not systematic political censorship. edit: missing word.

I'm guessing you typo'd CN as CH, as CH is Switerland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:CH but if you mean CH (the post you were mention other agency supervision) could you share more?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#228

Post by def_true_false » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:27 PM UTC

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #174

idrios wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Possibly, but American culture can actually be very good at taking collective action. In fact it can be so effective that often the way for special interest groups to push an agenda is to sway public opinion about a topic.

public opinion is an illusion in a world shaped by minority interest groups. It doesn't matter if it's neocons pulling the strings or the neoliberals in power. The outcomes are devastatingly destructive policies to line the pockets of the 1% at the expense of nature and the rest of us. If we remember Occupy Wallstreet and look at how many people have been placed on lists, or how many protesters got hurt, in compariso…

> Ranting on facebook or twitter unfortunately solves nothing.

As opposed to ranting on HN?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#229

Post by DyslexicAtheist » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:30 PM UTC

def_true_false wrote: post #228

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

public opinion is an illusion in a world shaped by minority interest groups. It doesn't matter if it's neocons pulling the strings or the neoliberals in power. The outcomes are devastatingly destructive policies to line the pockets of the 1% at the expense of nature and the rest of us. If we remember Occupy Wallstreet and look at how many people have been placed on lists, or how many protesters got hurt, in compariso…

> Ranting on facebook or twitter unfortunately solves nothing. As opposed to ranting on HN?

same difference. and for the record I don't exclude myself.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#230

Post by math_and_stuff » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 1:41 PM UTC

tssva wrote: post #154

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

Google already operates in multiple countries with histories of and ongoing human rights violations. What has triggered such a reaction from you about expansion into China vs their operation in say Saudi Arabia which was ongoing while you were at Google?

I never saw the blacklist for the KSA. If I had seen something like what I saw for China, I'm sure I would have fought that too. I have spent about a month visiting a university in the KSA (once during the public flogging of Raif Badawi) and care very much about Google's concessions and complicity there.