Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#201

Post by valker43 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:05 AM UTC

pcwalton wrote: post #120

sytelus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in Chin…

> My theory is that even if Chinese government was toppled, the replacement would still have same characteristics because that is the expectation that people have from their government. Taiwan is a counterexample.

It all comes down to economics. The population is OK with the CCP's policies because they brought unprecedented growth. The GDP growth chart since the cultural revolution is really almost hard to believe. The part of the population that's profiting from this development happens to be large enough to lead to a somewhat stable political situation.

This is obviously supported by extremely authoritative measures from government. Just look at what's happening in Xinjiang, Tibet and Taiwan. Imagine now, what happens when the growth engine stops or even reverses. The population might be much less accommodating to restrictive policies like the social credit system.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#202

Post by radiator » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:06 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #152

jayd16 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While its not necessarily my opinion, the issue is not about working in/with China, its about building a censored search engine.

Search engines are already censored.

Exactly. There are many websites which won't show up in a Google search in the West also, even if you search for their exact domain name. Some of them can be found on other search engines, some other maybe not.

So it must be that the opponents of this project are not opposed to censorship in general, but to censorship as applied in the People's Republic of China.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#203

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:07 AM UTC

o10449366 wrote: post #33

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I truly admire you for taking a stance and fighting for what you believe in. Figuring out what you can and can't stand for morally is a difficult task. I hope others can feel inspired by you to examine whether they can, in good conscience, continue to support Google. I am not advocating defeatism. I am simply trying to be realistic. It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more lenienc…

[deleted]

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#204

Post by PavlovsCat » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:09 AM UTC

sytelus wrote: post #80

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in Chin…

Do Chinese political prisoners feel lees pain when they get tortured? Do their family and friends feel less of a loss if they get killed? Would the people who look away swap with those they sweep under the rug, yes or no?

I for one judge people who look away by the facts, not the facts by others looking away, and after over half a century of killing political dissidents, the people who live now aren't the ones I would ask for direction. I would ask the ones that got killed first, if anyone.

> Think of all the things kids could have found out about science and western literature by better search that they currently aren't.

I first and foremost think of all the western literature, and more importantly history, I read and understood. I go by what I know for a fact, not by what others don't know yet. I don't "assume they want democracy", I know for a fact that I must not participate in totalitaranism, and won't break bread with those who do, or who offer it fig leaves.

Our intellectual and moral tradition, and the responsibilities that history places on us, is as it is. People can cut themselves off from it by ignoring it, to avoid a bit of friction here and get a bit of money or tourism there, but in the end that's just a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mess_of_pottage

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#205

Post by throwaway2048 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:11 AM UTC

fucking_tragedy wrote: post #180

RandomInteger4 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would it matter if Google is operating within the parameters of the government's censorship rules and generating tax revenue for the government?

You're asking this question in an era where we've gotten into a trade war with China? Because the CCP and its members are heavily invested in quite literally everything that isn't a foreignly owned business operating in China.

they are invested in those too (mandatory Chinese partners with 51% control, with mandatory IP transfers)

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#206

Post by pferde » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:14 AM UTC

burtonator wrote: post #126

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

This paper on 'simple sabotage' was written by the CIA during WWII https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/... It's really interesting. Basically if you can't fight back , just resort to sabotage. They discuss things like: - having extra meetings because meetings are inefficient. - promote lazy and mean people and demote effective and committed people because it impacts morale. I think this might…

Hi, I am Bob, and I fully endorse this message. See also point three in yesterday's meeting minutes.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#207

Post by valker43 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:16 AM UTC

fireattack wrote: post #166

sytelus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in Chin…

>(2) people in China benefits from access to much better search and subsequently gets better educated over time. This is the point I rarely heard here, or any Western communities. As a Chinese, I was genuinely baffled when I first heard that there are people actually boycotting the re-entry of Google in China, instead of celebrating this milestone. I thought we can finally have a usable search engine. I guess we get…

Two ways of looking at it. Many see it as a betrayal of Google's ideals. They left in 2010 because there was a breach in gmail originating from government affiliates and consequently endangering customers. Also, it the west this was perceived as a stand against human rights issues in China. So now a reentry looks like they are backtracking from that stance.

On the other hand, as you say, a purely pragmatic view is that it wouldn't make the situation worse if they offer a censored search engine, because that's the only thing (most) Chinese users get now anyway.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#208

Post by eastendguy » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:18 AM UTC

echevil wrote: post #159

pcwalton wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My theory is that even if Chinese government was toppled, the replacement would still have same characteristics because that is the expectation that people have from their government. Taiwan is a counterexample.

Not a good example though. Many Chinese see the current Taiwan government as a failure and use it as an argument that China should NOT adopt western democracy

"Many Chinese"... where did you get this number from?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#209

Post by eastendguy » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:20 AM UTC

fireattack wrote: post #166

sytelus wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in Chin…

>(2) people in China benefits from access to much better search and subsequently gets better educated over time. This is the point I rarely heard here, or any Western communities. As a Chinese, I was genuinely baffled when I first heard that there are people actually boycotting the re-entry of Google in China, instead of celebrating this milestone. I thought we can finally have a usable search engine. I guess we get…

You should talk to your government then. Nobody is against Google going back to China. It is about Google developing and supporting censorship (tools),

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#210

Post by BlackFly » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 10:24 AM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #196

math_and_stuff wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many different fronts to wage this fight on; changing consumer behavior is only one of them. Getting the project halted is important in its own right for the reason that it helps prevent the normalization of American tech companies actively aiding political oppression under the guise of abiding by 'local laws and regulations'. As I stated in a few comments down below: if we let American tech companies build…

I totally understand and support your stance. Total respect for resigning for idealistic reasons. But I have another point of view on the subject after having worked in SE Asia. I'm not trying to contradict anyone here, just give my (hopefully informed) opinion. There are no democracies in SE Asia. There are a couple of countries that pretend to democracy (Cambodia and the Philippines spring to mind), but even these…

It is not that westerners come from a different set of base assumptions, it is that western society has moved past those base assumptions. Western monarchies were divine rights, people died fighting against those viewpoints.

It is not an assumed superiority. We learn the lesson through our history, whether this lesson is right or wrong. We too had traditions of divine right, holistic medicine, censorship and similar, but those were replaced by current "Western" values. Censorship is seen as an unnecessary, oppressive weakness that we do not want to contribute to.