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Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#121

Post by samstave »

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

Replace google and execs with chinese authoritatians and workers with citizens

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#122

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

robbrit wrote: post #4

I think what will end up happening is Google employees will just self-sort until there aren't enough people left in the company to oppose projects like this. People who are strongly opposed on moral grounds will leave, further strengthening management's choices. While Google is probably sad to see them go, it would be even sadder to continue missing out on the world's largest market. I doubt the employee protests wil…

>While Google is probably sad to see them go, it would be even sadder to continue missing out on the world's largest market.

Honestly what I see happening, if Google isn't allowed to position themselves for a rentry into China, is Baidu eventually making an international debut. They have been developing an entire google-esque eco system in a bubble for years now. If Google was there, they wouldn't have such a strangle hold there, and wouldn't become an international threat.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#123

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #10
ProAm wrote: post #6

Why would they? Google fears China is going to create their own version of Google and will lose access to the country and possibly more of Asia. They are going to try very hard to keep their foot in the door there.

> Google fears China is going to create their own version of Google and will lose access to the country They already lost access to China nine years ago, and are now trying to get that access back .

>They already lost access to China nine years ago, and are now trying to get that access back.

Google withdrew from China on their own.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China#Operation_Aurora_...

For 9 years they ignored one of the world's largest market's, and likely soon to be the world's largest market. They don't get nearly enough credit for that, entering china now isn't going to be easy, with Baidu having such a stronghold there today.

Perhaps they thought China would change, perhaps they decided the risk of Baidu becoming a threat is too great, who knows. But does anyone really think Google not entering China will change anything?

If everyone in the United States stopped buying made in China products tomorrow, that could cause a change. But the Chinese who don't have access to Google? They'll just continue using Baidu.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#124

Post by Nition »

cma wrote: post #84
o10449366 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are two realistic facts: 1. Google would be absolutely fine if they do not expand into China. They would not collapse or lose their competitive edge if they refrained from doing so. You've worked at Google for over a decade so you should know this is true. 2. Google's censored search engine would absolutely facilitate Xi Jinping ability to censor the Chinese people and would set a dangerous precedent for other g…

> They would not collapse or lose their competitive edge if they refrained from doing so. Alphabet is a Deleware corporation, where executives that leave money on the table for moral reasons have to at least claim that it was their business judgment that the action would ultimately increase profits for shareholder value in the long term. There are many arguments those executives could make, such as that employees cou…

They're literally not allowed to make decisions on a moral basis, only a monetary one? That's pretty dystopian.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#125

Post by ladzoppelin »

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

All people want from life is free meals and video games?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#126

Post by burtonator »

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

This paper on 'simple sabotage' was written by the CIA during WWII

https://www.cia.gov/news-information/featured-story-archive/...

It's really interesting. Basically if you can't fight back , just resort to sabotage.

They discuss things like:

- having extra meetings because meetings are inefficient.

- promote lazy and mean people and demote effective and committed people because it impacts morale.

I think this might be a somewhat effective way to fight back in some of these situations.

Don't like your companies new policy on China?

More meetings! Also, promote Bob.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#127

Post by hahajk »

Nition wrote: post #124
cma wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They would not collapse or lose their competitive edge if they refrained from doing so. Alphabet is a Deleware corporation, where executives that leave money on the table for moral reasons have to at least claim that it was their business judgment that the action would ultimately increase profits for shareholder value in the long term. There are many arguments those executives could make, such as that employees cou…

They're literally not allowed to make decisions on a moral basis, only a monetary one? That's pretty dystopian.

Probably not literally, evidenced by Tim Cook’s “I don’t consider the bloody ROI” comment.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#128

Post by geuszb »

> [Sundar Pichai views] the censorship as a worthwhile trade-off to gain access to the country’s more than 800 million internet users

Citation needed.

Alternatively, Google's mission of "organizing the world's information" isn't quite complete if it continues not serving China.

Alternatively still, the real danger is not lost opportunity, but the emergence of a strong Chinese ecosystem (from network equipment all the way up to search and apps) that will steamroll Google's current Android-based hold onto the developing world.

Which would you rather believe, the CEO as a sellout who would do anything for a buck, or as a purist on a principled quest to be as useful as possible to mankind, or as a strategic leader aware of the risk of letting competition grow unchallenged?

Believe what you want about it, but neither is "news", just opinion.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#129

Post by stochastic_monk »

yorwba wrote: post #52
NoodleIncident wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument is that Google shouldn't build a censored search engine for one authoritarian state, because once it's built, it's easier for other states to ask for the same treatment. China's existing censored search engines are confined to that country, and I would also oppose any adoption of those services in the US. (As a side note: Is it wrong of me to be suspicious of comments on HN that are enthusiastically pro-…

> Is it wrong of me to be suspicious of comments on HN that are enthusiastically pro-China because they have English grammar errors in every sentence? Maybe, but I'm going to do that anyway. I think it's wrong of you to label someone as "enthusiastically pro-China" for thinking that having access to a censored version of Google would improve the state of the Chinese search engine market (without using VPNs, anyway).…

It's also worth considering that besides this thread, the only other post from that account was "Wow, GTA V IRL.". I think it's reasonable to be suspicious of the veracity of the account.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#130

Post by geuszb »

scarmig wrote: post #45
geofft wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A counterpoint: Google believed they could attract better engineers (which can be explained either as genuinely more skilled people, who have more ability to choose where they work, or simply more passionate people) with the "Don't be evil" policy. Oracle existed all along. Google wanted to not be Oracle. Now, Google has decided they want contracts like they're Oracle and they want staff like they're not Oracle. They…

> Nobody forced Google to be a public company This is the relevant part. As soon as you're public, it inevitably introduces strong pressures to pursue profit no matter its cost, as it decouples the negative social externalities corporate actions can cause from the profit made from those actions.

How is there more coupling between a company's profit and negative social externalities resulting from its actions when the company is privately-owned? If anything, I would think there's rather less coupling in privately owned companies, as a public company is at least forced to be somewhat transparent, publish SEC releases, subject itself to audits, etc. For example, unlike a private company, it wouldn't be possible for Google to engage in a material transformation of their business without accounting for it publicly towards their shareholders.
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