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Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#161

Post by kortilla »

scarmig wrote: post #45
geofft wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A counterpoint: Google believed they could attract better engineers (which can be explained either as genuinely more skilled people, who have more ability to choose where they work, or simply more passionate people) with the "Don't be evil" policy. Oracle existed all along. Google wanted to not be Oracle. Now, Google has decided they want contracts like they're Oracle and they want staff like they're not Oracle. They…

> Nobody forced Google to be a public company This is the relevant part. As soon as you're public, it inevitably introduces strong pressures to pursue profit no matter its cost, as it decouples the negative social externalities corporate actions can cause from the profit made from those actions.

No it doesn’t. There is no threat to google given that the majority voting control is held amongst the founders. Same for Facebook. There is no risk of a hostile takeover or being voted out by public shareholders.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#162

Post by fireattack »

math_and_stuff wrote: post #56
chivas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering which part of dragonfly makes you so unhappy. Is it the censorship itself or the censorship without telling user about it?

I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this included Google literally building a blacklist containing the terms 'human rights' and 'student protest' and ensuring that the Chinese Communist Party could track Chinese citizens' queries by their phone number.

I don't get it. As a Chinese, I can say that the absence of Google (even a highly censored version) will (and have already) only make it worse.

>Google literally building a blacklist

Every single search engine or social media in China already has that. Yes, Google likely will build one for their services if they plan to enter China. But it's not like they come up, or "actively" help with this idea.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#163

Post by hurr_durr »

tssva wrote: post #154
math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

Google already operates in multiple countries with histories of and ongoing human rights violations. What has triggered such a reaction from you about expansion into China vs their operation in say Saudi Arabia which was ongoing while you were at Google?

Funny how no one replied to this.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#164

Post by manigandham »

ycombobreaker wrote: post #141
cma wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They would not collapse or lose their competitive edge if they refrained from doing so. Alphabet is a Deleware corporation, where executives that leave money on the table for moral reasons have to at least claim that it was their business judgment that the action would ultimately increase profits for shareholder value in the long term. There are many arguments those executives could make, such as that employees cou…

They have to make decisions in support of their charter, which usually includes profit maximization. Google at least used to have "Don't be Evil" in there, which should be a pretty relevant shield.

It was never in the charter. It's not a shield of any sort. It's just a motto in the code of conduct. The motto has since changed but those words are still there, now in the last sentence.

It's meaningless and always has been. Why do people think that this cheesy phrase makes any difference for a giant corporation?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#165

Post by manigandham »

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

It's especially interesting how many times people quote "dont be evil" as a real thing that somehow made the company extra special. It was nothing but a PR statement (and the words are still there) but it shows how big the Google cult/bubble is that refuses to acknowledge that the company has always been just like any other massive conglomerate.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#166

Post by fireattack »

sytelus wrote: post #80
math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in Chin…

>(2) people in China benefits from access to much better search and subsequently gets better educated over time.

This is the point I rarely heard here, or any Western communities.

As a Chinese, I was genuinely baffled when I first heard that there are people actually boycotting the re-entry of Google in China, instead of celebrating this milestone. I thought we can finally have a usable search engine.

I guess we get in the way of ideality. Oh well.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#167

Post by tanilama »

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

> Google will move forward with expansion into China

Only if the Chinese let them.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#168

Post by rdlecler1 »

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

That’s fine and good now but when you start to erode trust the relationship becomes transactional. People loose enthusiasm for the job, stop going the extra mile, makes it harder to hire the best, and it puts the culture at risk. It ultimately accelerates a companies time to sunset and with a few bad quarters those benefits start getting taken aaay. You’ve hollowed out your company and have nothing left. Google was better off taking the high road and prospering of the culture and good will rather than a buck.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#169

Post by tanilama »

whoisjuan wrote: post #9

I find kind of hypocrite to reject the idea of a company working in a product that serves the Chinese market (which, btw, is ultra protectionist), while actively consuming goods that are manufactured in China. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to morally object something like this project, but it's kind of baffling that many are loudly voicing their concerns and demonizing any company that is attempting…

Because Resisting China is so iconic, it now becomes Google's identity. Now they have some pragmatic board members what to go into that market once again, but find themselves unable to do so, because it is enshrined by many of its employees as its glorious legacy.

I'd say forget about Chinese market, let aside Google's own identity struggle, Chinese government, under Xi, is much more stringent about its iron fist control over internet. Also the internet demographics have evolved. When Google quits China, it was hailed by many secretly as hero, now the ultra-nationalist new generation of netizens will welcome Google by their endless outrage against Western hypocrisies. To them, Google isn't the gold child of Western technologism, it is just a homeless dog who is disliked by its new master.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#170

Post by snazzycalynx »

Did the Author ever determine if the source images came from Drone-based WAMI or Satellite-based WAMI as originally reported? The original article in the intercept noted that the Google e-mails they had obtained showed that it was Satellite-based WAMI - which would sort of be a big deal..... AKA - who needs solar powered High Altitude Long Endurance (HALE) drone planes, blimps or aerostats to deploy Wide Area Persistent Surveillance when you can just put WAMI on Micro-sats that never come down and never blink?
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