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Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

nytimes.com

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Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#71

Post by maxxxxx »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #58
maxxxxx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

""Fire fighting" gets you hailed as a hero. "Fire prevention" tends to be dismissed as "You didn't really do anything. You just got lucky." Humans are super bad at counting the disasters that didn't happen, but should/would have. So "fire fighting" is more attractive, "sexy" and heroic." There is generally no respect for maintenance and things that last. Same in the corporate world. The people who keep systems runnin…

I stayed home with my kids until they were in their teens. I did so in part because I was molested and raped after my sister left for college and my mom began working, leaving me unprotected from a predator. My kids were never molested. It was crystal clear in my mind that the single biggest thing I could do to protect them from predators was simply be present. They spent little time in daycare or home alone. I am of…

"So it's driven home to me daily that the world terribly undervalues quiet maintenance type work."

I always think about how little the cleaners at a company are paid. In a sense they keep the whole thing running but they get sooo little respect.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#72

Post by rlpb »

philwelch wrote: post #37
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I'm confused to why a system needs to have bail bondsmen - isn't the idea behind bail being something you can possibly give up but want to get back? Isn't bail bonds something you can't afford? Even just paying the fee might be too much for people, but the alternative is to wait in jail an unjust amount of time.

Most people don't have enough cash on hand to pay any amount of bail that would serve as an incentive for them to get back--especially not most people who get arrested on criminal complaints. The bail bondsman actually provides another service to the court: he has the legal power and financial incentive to apprehend a suspect and return them to the custody of the court if you skip bail. In other words, instead of the…

> But it involves money changing hands, which gets certain people all up in a lather about abolishing it.

That's not the reason. The problem is that it requires innocent poor people to pay for the amortized cost of apprehending the guilty absconders, while rich innocent people do not need to pay anything (since they have the funds and will get their money back).

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#73

Post by jfk13 »

philwelch wrote: post #55
User23 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The homestead act was an affordable housing program that was a great success.

The problem was, we ran out of frontier. And we're not gonna get any more frontier anytime soon.

As someone[1] wrote, "The acquisition of new soil for the settlement of the excess population possesses an infinite number of advantages..."

After all, it seemed to work out pretty well for those 19th-century Americans.

[1] http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch04.html

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#74

Post by umvi »

throwaway_boi wrote: post #39
netsharc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But wouldn't algorithms be easy to examine? At the least you can test it with similar circumstances and modify the "race" variable and see if the results are consistent or different. Humans have many self-image protective layers when questioned (e.g. "I'm not racist, I have black friends!"), Bbut hopefully algorithms are more transparent...

Race variable is often correlated with other data. Look at red lining in real estate/banking. They marked black neighbourhoods with red boxes, white neighbourhoods with green. The bank would approve business and home loans depending on if you were in a red or green area. Algorithmically the banks did not engage in a racist practice but systemically they are.

But did they mark red areas because they were black neighborhoods or because historically people in those neighborhoods defaulted on loans?

An algorithm as simple as "mark neighborhoods with high default rates as red, low default rates as green" would probably turn out to be "racist" even if it is also flagging poor white trailer parks with red.

There's no easy way to solve that

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#75

Post by DoreenMichele »

maxxxxx wrote: post #71
DoreenMichele wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I stayed home with my kids until they were in their teens. I did so in part because I was molested and raped after my sister left for college and my mom began working, leaving me unprotected from a predator. My kids were never molested. It was crystal clear in my mind that the single biggest thing I could do to protect them from predators was simply be present. They spent little time in daycare or home alone. I am of…

"So it's driven home to me daily that the world terribly undervalues quiet maintenance type work." I always think about how little the cleaners at a company are paid. In a sense they keep the whole thing running but they get sooo little respect.

One of the reasons I ultimately quit my corporate job: during the recession, they cut back on janitorial to save money.

I was taking my own trash out of my cubicle every other day because I have a compromised immune system and it makes me too sick to work to leave trash there for two days.

I wonder how much productivity went down because of this one decision without anyone but me seeing any connection whatsoever.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#76

Post by philwelch »

jfk13 wrote: post #73
philwelch wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem was, we ran out of frontier. And we're not gonna get any more frontier anytime soon.

As someone[1] wrote, "The acquisition of new soil for the settlement of the excess population possesses an infinite number of advantages..." After all, it seemed to work out pretty well for those 19th-century Americans. [1] http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/mkv1ch04.html

Well that was the craziest Godwinning I've ever seen.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#77

Post by Hello71 »

philwelch wrote: post #50
Someone1234 wrote: post #3

This is a very interesting data driven article that will make you depressed. I recommend it. > Technological solutions, like electronic anklets that monitor an individual’s whereabouts, are another option. Even sending text-message reminders to show up in court makes it more likely that a defendant will do so. All these options are cheaper than incarceration. I hope this gains popularity. Cash bail discriminates agai…

If I'm a bail bondsman, I'm probably already sending text messages to my clients to make sure they show up in court, because if they don't, I'm the one out the money unless I go pick them up and take them to the county jail myself. I'm not sure about ankle bracelets, but there's no reason they couldn't be part of the current bail system, either--if I'm a bail bondsman, I'd give a discount to any client that wears an…

I don't think private bondsmen in the US can legally contract to require people to wear ankle bracelets.

More fundamentally though, these sorts of "free market" theories tend to assume an unreasonable amount of options and knowledge of potential clients. See: payday loans. Sure, in theory all the details of the loans are pre-agreed, and customers sure do have a lot of options. In practice, the most ethical providers tend not to be the most successful.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#78

Post by zeveb »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #51
philwelch wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't have enough cash on hand to pay any amount of bail that would serve as an incentive for them to get back--especially not most people who get arrested on criminal complaints. The bail bondsman actually provides another service to the court: he has the legal power and financial incentive to apprehend a suspect and return them to the custody of the court if you skip bail. In other words, instead of the…

> But it involves money changing hands, which gets certain people all up in a lather about abolishing it. If you're found innocent is the bail fee rescinded?

It's not a fee: you get it back just for showing up to court, whether you're guilty or innocent.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#79

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

zeveb wrote: post #78
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it involves money changing hands, which gets certain people all up in a lather about abolishing it. If you're found innocent is the bail fee rescinded?

It's not a fee: you get it back just for showing up to court, whether you're guilty or innocent.

No, they charge you a fee in addition: "Bond agents generally charge a fee of ten percent for a state charge and fifteen percent for a federal bail bond, with a minimum of one hundred dollars in such states as Florida, required in order to post a bond for the full amount of the bond. This fee is not refundable and represents the bond agent's compensation for services rendered." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bail_bondsman

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#80

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

philwelch wrote: post #69
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So an innocent person who's unable to afford bail either has to wait in jail for their court date or pay a fee for their freedom? That doesn't seem inhumane at all?

It's imperfect, but no perfect solution exists. If you're considered a low flight risk, you could be released under your own recognizance or released at a low enough level of bail that you can afford to pay the bondsman's rate. If you're considered a very high flight risk, you stay in jail. Cash bail is for the cases in the middle, and if you either abolish it or replace it with something less effective or efficient,…

Is it actually correlated to flight risk? Do they ever determine accused murderers are low risk?
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