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Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

nytimes.com

51–60 of 131 posts

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I'm confused to why a system needs to have bail bondsmen - isn't the idea behind bail being something you can possibly give up but want to get back? Isn't bail bonds something you can't afford? Even just paying the fee might be too much for people, but the alternative is to wait in jail an unjust amount of time.

Most people don't have enough cash on hand to pay any amount of bail that would serve as an incentive for them to get back--especially not most people who get arrested on criminal complaints. The bail bondsman actually provides another service to the court: he has the legal power and financial incentive to apprehend a suspect and return them to the custody of the court if you skip bail. In other words, instead of the…

> But it involves money changing hands, which gets certain people all up in a lather about abolishing it.

If you're found innocent is the bail fee rescinded?

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#52
post #45

I wish we would focus more on reweaving our tattered social fabric so people can access housing, healthcare, etc affordably and consistently. We also need to make it easier for parents to put their kids first. From what I gather, money spent on preschool reduces money spent on prison down the line as just one example of the direct and known connection between how we treat our kids and crime statistics. I'm not saying…

""Fire fighting" gets you hailed as a hero. "Fire prevention" tends to be dismissed as "You didn't really do anything. You just got lucky." Humans are super bad at counting the disasters that didn't happen, but should/would have. So "fire fighting" is more attractive, "sexy" and heroic." There is generally no respect for maintenance and things that last. Same in the corporate world. The people who keep systems runnin…

> There is generally no respect for maintenance and things that last. Same in the corporate world.

Of all places, HN should know this is true. So many devs hate maintenance to the point of snubbing their noses at anyone who does maintenance. "Oh, he's just a maintenance developer, he can't do what I do." I've actually heard devs say that about another dev. You would think that intelligence would prevent some of that behavior (because they should know better), but I guess not.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#53
Cathy O'Neill wrote a terrific book a couple of years back called 'Weapons of Math Destruction'. It's a must read for those of us in this field - and generally a great eye opener.

It would behoove us all to think about the consequences of the algorithms we're working on - much like this article.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Algorithms would be another, better way to know exactly what makes the determination if a person should be released awaiting trial or not. Isn't it a source of constant concern that the algorithms that end up being used in law enforcement inevitably end up employing the same stereotypes that their flesh and blood counterparts have?

But wouldn't algorithms be easy to examine? At the least you can test it with similar circumstances and modify the "race" variable and see if the results are consistent or different. Humans have many self-image protective layers when questioned (e.g. "I'm not racist, I have black friends!"), Bbut hopefully algorithms are more transparent...

An algorithm can be racially biased, or have biases that significantly correlate with race, without actually having a "race" variable.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#55
post #46
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why is our social fabric tattered and just what is this social fabric you refer to? From my perspective, people accessing housing, healthcare, etc affordably and consistently has never happened, at least not in the USA. Things are much better now than 100 years ago, at least in terms of the existence of programs to help those in poverty. Before the "great society" programs there was pretty much only family and pr…

The homestead act was an affordable housing program that was a great success.

The problem was, we ran out of frontier. And we're not gonna get any more frontier anytime soon.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#56
post #46
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why is our social fabric tattered and just what is this social fabric you refer to? From my perspective, people accessing housing, healthcare, etc affordably and consistently has never happened, at least not in the USA. Things are much better now than 100 years ago, at least in terms of the existence of programs to help those in poverty. Before the "great society" programs there was pretty much only family and pr…

The homestead act was an affordable housing program that was a great success.

Except for the problem of having to get there. If you lived in Virginia and wanted to homestead in Nebraska, you'd probably need a wagon, team, tools, supplies, and seed. That was a significant capital requirement. If you were dirt poor, I'm not sure you could do it.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#57

This is a very interesting data driven article that will make you depressed. I recommend it. > Technological solutions, like electronic anklets that monitor an individual’s whereabouts, are another option. Even sending text-message reminders to show up in court makes it more likely that a defendant will do so. All these options are cheaper than incarceration. I hope this gains popularity. Cash bail discriminates agai…

The article also proves things that people were unwilling to accept in this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19253333 There people always made the point that human judges making just decisions based on fairness. Well, clearly not. Algorithms would be another, better way to know exactly what makes the determination if a person should be released awaiting trial or not.

>Algorithms would be another, better way...

Humans are flawed, and any system made by humans will be flawed. That's just reality. Whether the system is composed of human judges or human built mechanical judges, it will display the same biases of-, and will be vulnerable to the same manipulation by-, humans that exists today. People like cops and DA's will figure out, "Hey! Just feed it the right input, I'll get the output that I want!"

So if you want to switch to digital judges because you want to save some bucks by not having to pay the humans, well that works. But if you are expecting a better system at the aggregated mean, you're likely to be very disagreeably surprised.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#58
post #45

I wish we would focus more on reweaving our tattered social fabric so people can access housing, healthcare, etc affordably and consistently. We also need to make it easier for parents to put their kids first. From what I gather, money spent on preschool reduces money spent on prison down the line as just one example of the direct and known connection between how we treat our kids and crime statistics. I'm not saying…

""Fire fighting" gets you hailed as a hero. "Fire prevention" tends to be dismissed as "You didn't really do anything. You just got lucky." Humans are super bad at counting the disasters that didn't happen, but should/would have. So "fire fighting" is more attractive, "sexy" and heroic." There is generally no respect for maintenance and things that last. Same in the corporate world. The people who keep systems runnin…

I stayed home with my kids until they were in their teens. I did so in part because I was molested and raped after my sister left for college and my mom began working, leaving me unprotected from a predator.

My kids were never molested. It was crystal clear in my mind that the single biggest thing I could do to protect them from predators was simply be present. They spent little time in daycare or home alone.

I am often reluctant to talk about that. Stay at home moms are treated like unambitious losers mooching off their gainfully employed husbands. Self proclaimed feminists are routinely really ugly to me and other women like me. Talking about the importance of a parent being there gets decried as being a misogynistic dinosaur advocating for women to be barefoot and pregnant.

I also have been told that my presence at home is not why my sons were never molested. I was merely "lucky" and I'm wrongfully trying to take credit for some random roll of the dice when I didn't actually do a fucking thing.

But I'm quite clear that civilization is mostly nurtured quietly by "thankless jobs" and the celebrated heroes are often a symptom of a failed system, so celebrating them sometimes strikes me as part of the problem, not part of the solution.

My sons understand the things I've done for them and they routinely tell me "You're an awesome mom and I'm so glad you raised me." But the rest of the world is pretty bad about making me feel like a total fucking loser with nothing of value to offer who doesn't deserve an adequate income and should stop whining about being poor.

So it's driven home to me daily that the world terribly undervalues quiet maintenance type work.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don't have enough cash on hand to pay any amount of bail that would serve as an incentive for them to get back--especially not most people who get arrested on criminal complaints. The bail bondsman actually provides another service to the court: he has the legal power and financial incentive to apprehend a suspect and return them to the custody of the court if you skip bail. In other words, instead of the…

> But it involves money changing hands, which gets certain people all up in a lather about abolishing it. If you're found innocent is the bail fee rescinded?

It isn't--which means that you do end up having to pay a decent amount of money if you get arrested and want to post bail even with a bondsman. A bail bond is basically a secured loan, and the bondsman's profit comes from what's effectively an interest payment on that loan. "People who just got arrested" are sort of a high-risk category of borrowers, so it can be a decent amount of money.

The bond is secured by your person--i.e. if the bondsman can apprehend you and take you to county jail, he gets his money back--but it's expensive and risky to do that.

Re: Unable to Post Bail? You Will Pay for That for Many Years

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But it involves money changing hands, which gets certain people all up in a lather about abolishing it. If you're found innocent is the bail fee rescinded?

It isn't--which means that you do end up having to pay a decent amount of money if you get arrested and want to post bail even with a bondsman. A bail bond is basically a secured loan, and the bondsman's profit comes from what's effectively an interest payment on that loan. "People who just got arrested" are sort of a high-risk category of borrowers, so it can be a decent amount of money. The bond is secured by your…

So an innocent person who's unable to afford bail either has to wait in jail for their court date or pay a fee for their freedom? That doesn't seem inhumane at all?
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