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DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

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Re: DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

#31

Post by thaumasiotes »

deogeo wrote: post #12

> “No population is, or ever could be, pure,” Why this obsession with 'purity'? Isn't it obvious that, despite none being pure, some populations are more closely related?

> Isn't it obvious that, despite none being pure, some populations are more closely related?

It is obvious, and the same data shows that groups can be very pure indeed. From this very article:

> Genetics also show that India’s caste system, previously thought to have developed under colonial rule, was in place thousands of years earlier.

First, "previously thought to have developed under colonial rule" is just false. The ancient Greeks wrote about India's caste system, thousands of years ago.

Second, what the data shows is not a record of social structure. It shows that modern Indian castes have practiced endogamy -- mating within the group, with negligible inflow from other groups -- for thousands of years.

Most people would be happy to describe this state of affairs as "pure" ancestry.

Re: DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

#32

Post by ng12 »

danans wrote: post #25
deogeo wrote: post #12

> “No population is, or ever could be, pure,” Why this obsession with 'purity'? Isn't it obvious that, despite none being pure, some populations are more closely related?

It's a rebuke of the false trope of the purity of racial ancestry which has persisted in many human societies for centuries, occasionally manifesting in the form of events like the Holocaust. Because that trope has sadly persisted to this day in some quarters, it's falsehood needs to be continually exposed, especially by sciences such as biological anthropology, which were once used to promulgate it.

I don't think it's a rebuke at all. The other side of the coin is to make sure you're the steppe tribes, not the hunter-gatherers. People who care about such things don't really care about purity, they care about winners and losers.

Re: DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

#33

Post by defen »

pryce wrote: post #28
vricius wrote: post #23

of course we are all mutts, we all evolved from bacteria. the question is the relative purity. "is the race pure from this period to this period" is what people mean when they mention purity. When a jew chooses a mate, they are only concerned if their mate has pure jewish ancestry from the last 2000 years.

That doesn't equate to "relative purity" at all. The number of ancestors someone has 66 generations in the past (approx 2000 years) is enormous. We can get around this by making value judgements that say "only the direct matrilineal line ancestors count" or "only the direct patrilineal line ancestors count", but ideas like that are absolutely human value judgements made as a reaction to the overwhelming complexity ab…

> We are indeed all mutts

I get why Reich says things like this, but you have to ask what it would mean not to be a "mutt". Is that even physically possible? If not, why do we need DNA testing of ancient skeletons to prove this?

Re: DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

#34

Post by thaumasiotes »

danans wrote: post #27
ern wrote: post #21

Genetics also show that India’s caste system, previously thought to have developed under colonial rule, was in place thousands of years earlier. “Colonial rule” means British rule presumably. I always assumed the caste system long pre-dated it, considering how entrenched it seems to be.

The British exploited it, and under them aspects of it became more rigid, but it long predates them.

The data shows there was less than one inter-caste marriage per caste pair per generation for the last few thousand years. What was left to become "more rigid" than that under the British?

Re: DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

#35

Post by danans »

mirimir wrote: post #26
danans wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a rebuke of the false trope of the purity of racial ancestry which has persisted in many human societies for centuries, occasionally manifesting in the form of events like the Holocaust. Because that trope has sadly persisted to this day in some quarters, it's falsehood needs to be continually exposed, especially by sciences such as biological anthropology, which were once used to promulgate it.

Actually, it's my impression that some Jewish groups have done a pretty good job at maintaining racial purity. In some cases, leading to ~frequent homozygousity for some nasty recessive mutations. I don't know the specifics, but I've read that only certified Jews can officially marry in Israel. And the standards are so high that many "Jewish" immigrants don't qualify. Now that we have DNA testing, I wonder if that wi…

> Actually, it's my impression that some Jewish groups have done a pretty good job at maintaining racial purity.

Because certain very specific subgroups have done this doesn't mean that they are "pure". These in-marrying groups are always descended from mixed populations in the first place, populations that predate the identity badges we ascribe to them today.

Tay Sachs, among the genetic diseases you alluded to, is also present in non Jewish populations, but at a lower rate:

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/non-jews-increasingly-hit-by-...

> I don't know the specifics, but I've read that only certified Jews can officially marry in Israel. > And the standards are so high that many "Jewish" immigrants don't qualify.

People can convert to Judaism, and even be born into Judaism with one Jewish parent. This is very common among populations outside of Israel.

Large subgroups in Judaism, sephardi, baghdadi, etc, are genetically quite diverse in origin, and are significantly represented among the Israeli population.

Re: DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

#36

Post by scythe »

drilldrive wrote: post #14
smrtinsert wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the problem is we probably can't find anyone to sponsor to study to determine if once and for all, whites are prone to psychosis and mass murder via guns.

Now that is quite the switch of topic. The only known research of race differences in psychopathy is of Richard Lynn's 2002 studies on the topic. In this, Lynn does point to whites being more prone to psychosis than on average. I do know of some controversy of Richard Lynn's work, and here is a response paper to such: https://web.archive.org/web/20130108233748/http://riskreduct... Regarding school shootings in partic…

Psychopathy, i.e. antisocial personality disorder, and psychosis, the state of experiencing delusions and/or hallucinations, are two very different things.

Re: DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

#37

Post by justtopost »

mirimir wrote: post #26
danans wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a rebuke of the false trope of the purity of racial ancestry which has persisted in many human societies for centuries, occasionally manifesting in the form of events like the Holocaust. Because that trope has sadly persisted to this day in some quarters, it's falsehood needs to be continually exposed, especially by sciences such as biological anthropology, which were once used to promulgate it.

Actually, it's my impression that some Jewish groups have done a pretty good job at maintaining racial purity. In some cases, leading to ~frequent homozygousity for some nasty recessive mutations. I don't know the specifics, but I've read that only certified Jews can officially marry in Israel. And the standards are so high that many "Jewish" immigrants don't qualify. Now that we have DNA testing, I wonder if that wi…

Indeed. Jews are literally racist by creed, yet it is often overlooked for reasons of diversity.

Re: DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

#38

Post by danans »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #31
deogeo wrote: post #12

> “No population is, or ever could be, pure,” Why this obsession with 'purity'? Isn't it obvious that, despite none being pure, some populations are more closely related?

> Isn't it obvious that, despite none being pure, some populations are more closely related? It is obvious, and the same data shows that groups can be very pure indeed. From this very article: > Genetics also show that India’s caste system, previously thought to have developed under colonial rule, was in place thousands of years earlier. First, "previously thought to have developed under colonial rule" is just false.…

> First, "previously thought to have developed under colonial rule" is just false. The ancient Greeks wrote about India's caste system, thousands of years ago.

Correct, the article is flat wrong on this. Indian sources that even predate the Greeks also speak in detail about the societal arrangement.

> Second, what the data shows is not a record of social structure. It shows that modern Indian castes have practiced endogamy -- mating within the group, with negligible inflow from other groups

Yes, but they are still sampled, albeit in varying proportions, from the same source populations, referred to in the literature as ASI and ANI, which are themselves composite groups.

Re: DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

#39

Post by thaumasiotes »

danans wrote: post #38
thaumasiotes wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't it obvious that, despite none being pure, some populations are more closely related? It is obvious, and the same data shows that groups can be very pure indeed. From this very article: > Genetics also show that India’s caste system, previously thought to have developed under colonial rule, was in place thousands of years earlier. First, "previously thought to have developed under colonial rule" is just false.…

> First, "previously thought to have developed under colonial rule" is just false. The ancient Greeks wrote about India's caste system, thousands of years ago. Correct, the article is flat wrong on this. Indian sources that even predate the Greeks also speak in detail about the societal arrangement. > Second, what the data shows is not a record of social structure. It shows that modern Indian castes have practiced en…

> Yes, but they are still sampled, albeit in varying proportions, from the same source populations, referred to in the literature as ASI and ANI.

Sure, but that was several thousand years ago. Again, most people are perfectly happy to describe unmixed ancestry for the last 2400 years as being "pure", and the castes go back farther than that.

Re: DNA reveals we are all genetic mutts

#40

Post by mirimir »

danans wrote: post #35
mirimir wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it's my impression that some Jewish groups have done a pretty good job at maintaining racial purity. In some cases, leading to ~frequent homozygousity for some nasty recessive mutations. I don't know the specifics, but I've read that only certified Jews can officially marry in Israel. And the standards are so high that many "Jewish" immigrants don't qualify. Now that we have DNA testing, I wonder if that wi…

> Actually, it's my impression that some Jewish groups have done a pretty good job at maintaining racial purity. Because certain very specific subgroups have done this doesn't mean that they are "pure". These in-marrying groups are always descended from mixed populations in the first place, populations that predate the identity badges we ascribe to them today. Tay Sachs, among the genetic diseases you alluded to, is…

> People can convert to Judaism, and even be born into Judaism with one Jewish parent. This is very common among populations outside of Israel.

Yes, but to strict orthodox, they're not really "Jewish".

At one point, I researched rabbinical criteria for determining pedigree and classifying degree of Jewishness. Who can marry who, and how any children are classified. It's mind-boggling. If I have some time while this thread is hot, I'll post some sources.

Edit: Here are some sources. Please note that they're Jewish sources. Not anti-Jewish sources.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11977-pedigree

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/4045946/jewis...

https://tikvahfund.org/uncategorized/intermarriage-can-anyth...

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/marriage-in-judaism

http://www.cohen-levi.org/jewish_genes_and_genealogy/the_dna...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1288118/

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