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France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

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Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a nightmare. First, tax laws don't have clear intentions to begin with -- if a tax law passes with 51 out of 100 votes in the legislature, all 51 representatives could be supporting the "letter" of the law for 51 different actual intentions, many of which might not be noble in the first place (e.g. give a particular local factory a tax break to win more votes next election). Second, because of this, "in…

> The things you say should "simply be outlawed" -- how? How are you going to determine which internal loan is "expensive" versus "very expensive"? How are you going to differentiate between legitimate payments and the "royalties" you put in quotes that you call a construct? Example for interest rates: Credit risk and intrabank/central bank rates are considered by courts when judging whether a rate is “too high”. Swe…

It's more complicated than that.

A few percent here or there is all it takes to make a company unprofitable. Most companies don't have huge margins even when they're not trying to reduce them on purpose. You don't need the rate to be higher by a lot, only a little.

And then there is the principal. If you want profits in a jurisdiction, the entity there can get cash by e.g. selling its shares to the parent, which it then has without having to pay interest on. If you don't want profits there, the parent pays nothing (or some nominal amount) for shares and the subsidiary borrows all of its capital, which it then has to pay interest on at prevailing rates which may by itself exceed its profits indefinitely.

And loans are far from the only opportunity for this sort of thing. Pay slightly more for COGS to a sister company and you make significantly less profit, because a small percentage of gross is a large percentage of net.

One percent here, two percent there and soon a 10% margin is -0.1%.

What causes this is trying to tax something (profit) which is independent of any specific activity or jurisdiction. If a company makes phones and sells them, there is no principled reason why a certain percentage of the profit should go to the place where the phone is manufactured vs. designed vs. sold vs. the residence of the investor(s). If your jurisdiction is the one where they're sold but not manufactured or designed etc. and you want to tax that, the bleeding obvious way to do it is with VAT or some similar product/service tax. Trying to contort income tax into that shape is silly and just provides more opportunities for lawyers and accountants to find new loopholes.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#122
post #105
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly are they losing?

As a European, I feel like the EU, in general, is on the losing side of globalization. There is not a single European internet company in the top 15. I think part of the reason for this is cultural (aversion to risk), part of it is due to the environment (relatively low salaries for IT, limited access to venture capital) and a part of it is due to bad policies being enacted by the EU - most notably the EU VAT on digi…

> [...] and a part of it is due to bad policies being enacted by the EU - most notably the EU VAT on digital services, the GDPR and now the Copyright directive.

These rules came into effect the last year or so, the "battle" for the tech industry was fought ten to twenty years ago. US companies all have had a huge advantage "only" being under the (at the time very criticized) DMCA while European companies had to abide by local laws, often in multiple jurisdictions. Large US companies also avoided paying the same taxes European companies had to, amassing large reserves for acquisitions of any successful European companies.

That Europe can't produce technology companies is false, at least to the same extent that applies to the US. They just either got outmaneuvered by large US entities, got acquired or ended up limited in their growth by things like housing. If you look at e.g. Sweden you have MySQL (eventually acquired by Oracle), Skype (eventually acquired by Microsoft), Minecraft (acquired by Microsoft), Spotify (public with many offices). Any of these companies could have been really big domestically, if it wasn't for it being hard to grow and easy to get bought.

These rules, whether you agree with them or not, should have been there 20 years ago so everyone had to play by the same rules.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#123
post #59
post #2

Couldn't we just ban tax evasion? What makes it so hard? (honest question) A recent European study has shown that the more company win money, the less they pay in taxes (in percentage). Is it because of bad laws? Corrupt politicians? Something else?

Europe is losing ~globalization and we are fighting over the scraps. Which European country do you think will be overall obviously better in ten years? And not in the sense that "everything gets better", but in the sense of having a high rate of success in converting progress to prosperity. I don't know of any.

From my travels it sounds like (some) Europeans don’t work that much compared to their American or Asian counterparts. Like, French citizens gets way more vacation than anyone I know.

It’s obviously good to live a decent life and spend time with family, but at some point it cuts into your national productivity.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#124
post #119
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, it isn't evasion but avoidance. The issue is that there a lot of ways to put the money on the books wherever you want it. Let's say you want to sell mobile phones. You could create one company in France that builds, buys and sells phones. In this case it becomes pretty clear it is a French company and all the money will be taxed in France. But let's say you have that same company and split it up…

Suddenly it strikes me that one fix might be eliminating international subsidiaries. It's possible it would be hard to enforce in practice, but the crux of the problem is the absence of a competitive relationship & autonomy between these supposedly independent companies.

> one fix might be eliminating international subsidiaries

I believe that means "no multinational companies" - one could certainly argue for that, but it's a much bigger discussion. And I think you would have to end up forbidding citizens (residents? how does it work when you move countries?) of country A owning shares of company in country B if you really wanted that to work.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#125
The government needs funding to operate, efficiently or ineffectively but that's the voters problem.

They tax individual and corporate entities.

Companies gets cute and exploit loopholes with dozens of companies and locations to avoid paying the normal tax rate.

So the state strikes back and imposes a 5% (sorta sales) tax that cannot be circumvented. No big deal, other than for Google, FB etc companies that choose to do business in France.

I'm sure they can still keep their quintuple sandwich tax schemes

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#126
post #103
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is already a difference in tax (VAT) rates based on the consumer's location. This move would be distinct from import duties or product standards in that it's not really creating a clear barrier to sales across the single market. On the other hand, the really quite high threshold might well be subject to complaints on the basis of distorting the single market. All the large multinationals that would hit the thre…

Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that it’s correcting an imbalance? Google operates in France but is able to undercut France businesses for digital content sold to French people ( merchandise is traceable ) because it happens to have an Ireland operation?

There are plenty of imbalances within the EU, Greece grows olives, Germany grows Volkswagens.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#127
post #119
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have said, it isn't evasion but avoidance. The issue is that there a lot of ways to put the money on the books wherever you want it. Let's say you want to sell mobile phones. You could create one company in France that builds, buys and sells phones. In this case it becomes pretty clear it is a French company and all the money will be taxed in France. But let's say you have that same company and split it up…

Suddenly it strikes me that one fix might be eliminating international subsidiaries. It's possible it would be hard to enforce in practice, but the crux of the problem is the absence of a competitive relationship & autonomy between these supposedly independent companies.

The obvious solution is to eliminate corporation tax and shift it to areas that are harder to avoid such as dividends, capital gains and land value.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t know what this was, so I checked ( https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/taxation/vat/vat-digit... ). Long story short: MOSS stands for “mini one stop shop” and looks explicitely designed to make it easier to sell across the EU . > The Mini One-Stop-Shop (MOSS Scheme) enables you to supply digital services within the EU without the need to register in each EU country you supply to. It can be used by both EU-…

The fine print around who actually needs to pay. A very simple example - say you sell online courses. Should you register for VAT?

Well the page on MOSS lists “distance teaching” as falling under the definition of digital services. So I guess the answer is yes?

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#129
post #108
post #2

Couldn't we just ban tax evasion? What makes it so hard? (honest question) A recent European study has shown that the more company win money, the less they pay in taxes (in percentage). Is it because of bad laws? Corrupt politicians? Something else?

> Is it because of bad laws? No, it's because of the good laws. Taxation is theft. And it's not called tax evasion but tax planning. No one is obliged to pay more than the minimum.

> Taxation is theft.

No it isn't. Property rights are determined by the state, hence taxation by the state cannot be considered theft.

Re: France Plans 5% Digital Tax as Governments Chase Internet Giants

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be a nightmare. First, tax laws don't have clear intentions to begin with -- if a tax law passes with 51 out of 100 votes in the legislature, all 51 representatives could be supporting the "letter" of the law for 51 different actual intentions, many of which might not be noble in the first place (e.g. give a particular local factory a tax break to win more votes next election). Second, because of this, "in…

> The things you say should "simply be outlawed" -- how? How are you going to determine which internal loan is "expensive" versus "very expensive"? How are you going to differentiate between legitimate payments and the "royalties" you put in quotes that you call a construct? Example for interest rates: Credit risk and intrabank/central bank rates are considered by courts when judging whether a rate is “too high”. Swe…

We already have rules requiring that! So what's the content of your proposal?
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