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Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

nytimes.com

41–50 of 100 posts

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#41
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you provide some examples of tools which are not inherently abusable? I can't think of any.

I think the point is more like: consider how often a gun is abused vs. a blanket. Surely it's not a stretch to conclude that the former enables unethical acts far more than the latter.

That framing only captures half of the truth though. The quality a gun has that a blanket does not is to enable adversarial actions. So yes, the technology of the gun does enable unethical actions like point-and-click murder. But it also enables individuals and smaller groups to defend themselves against aggressors, which most people would consider ethical.

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that "artifacts have politics" [0], but rather pointing out that focusing solely on the negative actions enabled by guns is fallacious. In fact, the development of firearms is historically seen as having democratized power. It's just that most of what we consider the positive effects have been incorporated into the framework of our society, while we continue trying to diminish the negative ones.

Now having said that, so far "AI" (really ML) is primarily being wielded by large centralized entities against individuals. A less-equipped defending army does not particularly benefit from having a few drones with facial recognition, as their human soldiers are under attack regardless. Whereas it does enable a much larger conquering army to further insulate itself from the results of war.

Even relatively benign uses like voice recognition or recommendations have become excuses to retain large surveillance datasets on our entire society, and to shape the development so results favor large centralizing entities rather than their supposed users - eg the common engagement metric of "human time wasted".

But are the ethical issues the result of "AI" technology itself, or better attributed to the larger system its deployed upon? On the consumer side, I would say that the fundamental ethical problem is that software is not under its users control. If the majority of training sets were being accumulated voluntarily, with the goal of developing applications that actually helped users, then I think the ethical landscape would look quite different.

[0] If you don't recognize the reference, search it.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#43

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Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#45
post #26

Ethics is subjective. If ethics could be codified I think we'd have one ruleset everyone agrees on. The article mentions trying to have a human enforce ethics, but then that person has to be an example of ethical excellence; something you can't test for. And in the end, they say every man has his price, so no. I don't think "ethical AI" is possible. I think "ruthlessly efficient AI" is the goal. Maybe it should only…

Exactly. The question should be "Is a (universal) Ethical person even possible?".

And of course, it entirely depends on whose culture and historical norms you're looking at and who is doing the judging. So really, no.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#46
post #38
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a hammer make decisions?

Does an AI (as we have them now)? If I give someone a paper and say "wait a day then follow these instructions", I'm making the decisions, not them, even if the paper has branching logic like "if it's morning, call Alice but if it's afternoon call Bob."

Isn't that the point? Ethics is in the execution, if I make "ethical" instructions and someone follows them, they're operating by the constraints of said ethics.

The point is that agents that operate ethically need not be sentient, they just need to play faithfully in our rule sets.

Which will sometimes mean eschewing maxima when doing so violates them. It will sometimes mean losses or ties in zero sum games.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#47
post #45
post #26

Ethics is subjective. If ethics could be codified I think we'd have one ruleset everyone agrees on. The article mentions trying to have a human enforce ethics, but then that person has to be an example of ethical excellence; something you can't test for. And in the end, they say every man has his price, so no. I don't think "ethical AI" is possible. I think "ruthlessly efficient AI" is the goal. Maybe it should only…

Exactly. The question should be "Is a (universal) Ethical person even possible?". And of course, it entirely depends on whose culture and historical norms you're looking at and who is doing the judging. So really, no.

Yet murder is a punishable offense and people seem just fine with that.

The law is an accepted and used set of actions that are considered bad, with associated repercussions. It's a best effort and it _works_. Why would AI have to reinvent the wheel here?

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#48
(Throwaway in case this is crank science.)

Neural nets are inspired by human neural structures. Training is in some ways similar to human learning. Genetic algorithms especially in simulated worlds are directly inspired by the biological evolution in the real world.

Is there any chance that the resulting algorithms themselves (the AI) shall have any ethical rights or significance? Especially once it exceeds in complexity the human brain.

The reason I ask is that it is an ethical question about AI (and therefore on topic), but I don't know how to think about it and hope others here might share some insight.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#49
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The question should be "Is a (universal) Ethical person even possible?". And of course, it entirely depends on whose culture and historical norms you're looking at and who is doing the judging. So really, no.

Yet murder is a punishable offense and people seem just fine with that. The law is an accepted and used set of actions that are considered bad, with associated repercussions. It's a best effort and it _works_. Why would AI have to reinvent the wheel here?

Great, murder is one tiny issue in the huge ethical problem space, and probably the simplest as dead and not dead is pretty binary. Now define suffering algorithmically.

Re: Is Ethical A.I. Even Possible?

#50
post #26

Ethics is subjective. If ethics could be codified I think we'd have one ruleset everyone agrees on. The article mentions trying to have a human enforce ethics, but then that person has to be an example of ethical excellence; something you can't test for. And in the end, they say every man has his price, so no. I don't think "ethical AI" is possible. I think "ruthlessly efficient AI" is the goal. Maybe it should only…

Ruthlessly efficient AI is the next "big stick". Nuclear weapons brought us relatively close to world peace (after burning up hundreds of thousands of people and scaring the whole world shitless) maybe ruthless AI can do the same. I'm not particularly eager to see what an AI arms race and cold war looks like though. Things are decent enough right now, it could be a lot worse; do the upsides of creating ruthless AI ju…

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