A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews • Hacker News Board

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#151

Post by courtf » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 10:02 PM UTC

grogenaut wrote: post #147

courtf wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software is far more art than you think, and rigid, formulaic thinking can be a detriment to good problem solving skills. Especially when solving something you can't just look up on the internet. If your engineers aren't writing clean, readable, maintainable code that solves problems as simply as possible (ie, gorgeous), I'm not sure your hiring practices are doing you any good.

I don't think you even read what I said. I didn't say that I was looking for sloppy people who could use a whiteboard. I specifically interview for understandable (maintainable) code, good problem solving, and communication skills.

I was responding to these lines:

I'm not hiring artists I'm hiring engineer's. I'm not hiring your for your gorgeous code in x language, I'm hiring for problem solving skills and communication.

I agree with the second half (problem solving and communication) but take some issue with the the way you dismissed the art of it all. Maybe we have different ideas of what an artist is?

I tend to think of software in more blue-collar terms myself, perhaps more like a carpenter (who has to consider more than just aesthetics, but certainly can't ignore them) than a violinist, but my earlier comment was just continuing the established metaphor. Either way, I get the sense we agree more than we disagree here.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#152

Post by grogenaut » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 10:04 PM UTC

Personally I prefer in person interviews as take homes take a long time and I really only have time for that for positions I'm super interested in.

When I'm intereviewing people, I let them use what they're comfortable with. If they want to use a laptop, fine, if they want to use the one we provided, fine. If they want to use the whiteboard, fine. I can adapt. If they want to use any given programming language, also fine, I can read most of them and if I can't then it gives me a read on communication as they explain different lambda or whatever syntaxes to me.

I will say (and advise candidates) that you should use languages you are most comfortable in, and use what you're actually comfortable using for coding. Don't do java because you heard company X uses java and you learned it this weekend.

That said if you know python or ruby or similar language it's better for most interviews with algorithms or string manipulation. If the coding question is about byte arrays and memory allocation, c would be better. So I personally will flip languages in an interview I'm taking.

Having given around 500 interviews in the last 3 years, I will say that when people use computers they tend to focus on things like syntax more, as do the interviewers. These things tend to get ignored more on a whiteboard or without syntax highlighting.

I believe most mid to upper level programming interviews focus more on problem solving and communication, which does mean that if you get hung up on syntax (or the interviewer does) then you are burning valuable time on things that don't really get you that senior level signal you are looking for.

Eg the more time you can focus on showing you can solve problems, communicate, and design systems, and the less you are just arguing with the compiler, the better signal the interviewer is going to get on your experience.

At the end of the day, the only real interview that can get a good signal is working with the other person for a meaty period of time, usually several months. Thus all interviews are are inherently an artificial evaluation. It's just like taking standardized tests. You can get mad at the process or you can just get over it and optimize for getting the highest evaluation you can.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#153

Post by xfer » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

codingdave wrote: post #80

Using a whiteboard, or even having trivia-like questions isn't the problem. The problem is that people think those tools are trying to test your ability to get the answer right. No. They are a medium through which you can see how someone approaches problems, their thought processes, how they structure their ideas, what they do when they get stuck, how well they communicate, how well they understand directions, how we…

> Quite the opposite, slamming in a memorized algorithm with the right answer has been a reason for 'no hire' in my experience. Because all it shows is that you can code.

So the people who already know the solution to your problem are supposed to pretend to have an "aha moment"? Really this is one of the reasons the process doesn't work as well as you hope, people will memorize algorithms and pretend to have that genius moment that you look for.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#154

Post by JamieF1 » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 10:07 PM UTC

curtis wrote: post #132

I wonder if the right thing to do is to simply give interviewees a choice between whiteboard interviews and take home tests. I seem to be in a minority, but I personally prefer whiteboard interviews over take home tests, but I can easily understand why many people prefer take home.

I think you're right. It all comes down to the person involved. There's no silver bullet but I do think it makes sense to give people more choice.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#155

Post by jjav » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 10:09 PM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #102

simplesleeper wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how do you propose a removal of all stress? Shall we hire everyone and fire them if they turn out to be dreadful after a week? That would ensure EVERYONE is under pressure all the time...

Evaluate software engineering candidates the same way virtually every other skilled profession on the planet evaluates their candidates: through a series of conversational interviews that involve technical communication about their skills and past experiences, and perhaps some version of “sample work” that ideally should just come from GitHub, school project, Stack Overflow answers, etc., and only be based on some ta…

Yes, exactly!

I've been in the tech (software) industry over 25 years now, nearly all of those years here in Silicon Valley. Worked in everything from 3 person startups to the largest of enterprises.

I feel good about saying I've never made a bad hire (meaning: I've never come to regret saying "hire", everyone I have given the thumbs up after an interview has turned out to be a fine contributor).

I don't ask candidates to code, I don't ask them to come up with whiteboard architectures out of the blue or any of these silly artificial techniques that don't measure anything relevant.

Here's what I do: I carefully read their resume. I have a conversation about the projects they have worked on. I encourage them to talk about what jobs/projects/tasks they liked and disliked and why. What they found easy vs. hard and why. And what they want to work on next and why.

That's it. Works extremely well.

I wish everyone would try it. You'll find it is very easy to pick out those who padded their resume. You can't actually have a meaningful conversation about what you loved and hated about working on foo if you didn't do it.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#156

Post by skwb » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 10:19 PM UTC

pmikesell wrote: post #137

acslater00 wrote: post #71

I ask most candidates to write code on a whiteboard in front of me and I’m not apologizing for it! The problem is usually fairly easy and if the candidate cannot get to a “describe solution in words” milestone then I will guide them to one. After that I ask them to write code. I will also tell them “the code is the part I care about”. The specific competency I am evaluating here is “can you turn thoughts into code”.…

Thank you for writing this post. Whiteboard code interviews get a lot of hate on HN and I suspect that folks who have come to rely on them for part of their hiring signal have simply stopped posting. I've done a lot of lower level systems work and the fact is that even with a long career and history of very successful product I get whiteboard coding interviews when I look for a job ... and it's just fine. Yes it's no…

You forgot to mention the permutation of companies "wanting" 2), but using the search strategy optimized for 1) approach due to:

- poor HR communication

- poor ability of hiring managers to know what the job entails

- hiring managers past experience hiring primarily for 1), but assuming projects that now need 2)

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#157

Post by pfranz » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 10:23 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #119

isoskeles wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is providing a code editor or text editor different than writing it out on the whiteboard? I do a similar process and don't care if their syntax is exactly correct. I, maybe different from the person you're responding to, don't care if they use exact libraries in the precisely correct way. But I do care that they're able to come up with a plausible solution. At a point, I see people gripe about whiteboard intervi…

> How is providing a code editor or text editor different than writing it out on the whiteboard? At least for me, it's vastly better. In an editor, I'm in my element, I have autocomplete, things work they way they usually do and everything is much more comfortable. I could even throw together some quick tests and test drive my code!

As an interviewer I'd prefer a whiteboard and an open discussion. With a computer I have to deal with pedantic reality instead of discussing the concepts or approach. You also need a projector or a large screen if it's more than one other person in the room.

At one interview I was given a coding test (this was alone and timed). I was put into a separate room and pointed to a computer. It was a Windows box and Notepad.exe was the only thing I saw. I may have found Nodepad++, but I'm pretty sure it didn't have a Python interpreter. I hadn't used a Windows box in 10 years and my preferred environment is Vim. After the test they pulled me into a different room with the interviewers and discussed the code. This test was terrible for multiple reasons. I was asked to interview by a senior person who was working there who admitted that part of the process sucked and was pushing to improve it.

Even at large places that invest heavily in hiring, I don't see them developing/maintaining a test candidate environment, they're not likely going to hand you someone else's account in a production environment, and if they have a generic PC with a guest account, things are going to be missing or out of date. It'd be preferable for me to bring in my own laptop (but that discriminates against people with desktops or who don't have home computers).

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#158

Post by bitexploder » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 10:42 PM UTC

jboy55 wrote: post #91

throwaway66666 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, take home challenges are probably very discriminatory towards older candidates with families. So maybe just as subtle way of age discrimination? And whiteboard interviews are discriminatory towards people with anxiety who have trouble thinking clearly when they are in the spotlight with all eyes on them, no? Where does the microaggressions game start and end? My current company does, -Offer choice between liv…

>And whiteboard interviews are discriminatory towards people with anxiety who have trouble thinking clearly when they are in the spotlight with all eyes on them, no? Where does the microaggressions game start and end? So Gender/Age/Disabilty discrimination are now microagrssions? It seems from your description of your hiring practice, someone has thought of the implications of take home questions given the choice bet…

Not to parse words too cutely, but, to hire someone requires discriminating amongst all of the applicants to choose the best fits. This is different from discrimination (which is “unjust”). There are certain protected classes that you are ethically not allowed to discriminate against. It is supposed to be merit based, but there is no perfect system. You would have to double blind reviewers, etc. so bias will always happen. As long as you arent doing it on purpose based on a protected class, I think whiteboard / take home are pretty tame and acceptable. Take home assignments work fine IMO. We have them and our company skews much older than SV. We have approx half or more of the company with kids and families and they have all gone through the same hiring process.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#159

Post by VonGallifrey » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 10:47 PM UTC

rhinoceraptor wrote: post #87

mykowebhn wrote: post #3

Some companies list a take-home assignment as an alternative. IMO, that's worse than a whiteboard interview. My time is valuable, and I don't want to spend my evenings or weekends on an assignment.

I think take home assignments could be done well, but I've never seen it happen. You often need to spend time setting up which is a total waste of time for a throwaway project. You should provide the candidates with a starter project in their language of choice, already set up and ready for them to start working. And you should give everyone at least some time limit (maybe one or two hours at most) so everyone is on…

Why is a starter project so important that it needs to be provided by the company and why in the language of choice of the candidate? How long does it take for you to setup a starter project?

When I solved the challenge that we give our applicants it took me about 5 seconds to setup the project with everything I needed to solve the challenge. In any language I use it does not take long at all to setup a new project. Especially small ones like that.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#160

Post by lazyasciiart » Sat, Mar 02, 2019, 10:51 PM UTC

kokokokoko wrote: post #120

jboy55 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 'Work Hours' require someone to be oncall 24/7, you can ask that as part of your interview, but you can't infer that from other factors. Yes: "Our job requires you to be on-call 24/7, one week a month, can you commit to that?". No: "You said you didn't have time for the take home test because you have a family. The family will get in the way of 24/7 support" Also yes: "you will be traveling 5 days a week for your…

As someone who has been in this industry for a long time and seen a lot, this still baffles me. Who agrees to being on call 24/7 for a week? Especially when you are getting paid a typical professional salary? It seems absurd. I've always been active after hours and willing to jump in when things happen. But this idea that you are essentially working (since you need to always be somewhere you can start working within…

Our company introduced this last year. The reactions ranged from "the fuck you think I'm going to do this" to "you bunch of whiners, when I did Ops I was on call 25/8/370 for $0". The way teams implemented it ranged from "you have that week to work on whatever you want/not show up" to "well we don't expect any out of hours calls so we won't implement anything except a roster". It's been fascinating.