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A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

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Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#141

Post by bartread »

codingdave wrote: post #100
01100011 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interview is a special scenario where the pressure is several orders of magnitude beyond anything you'll usually encounter in the work environment. Some folks' reasoning skills utterly fall apart in such situations. Without understanding that, you may miss out on some stellar performers who have no issues reasoning or solving problems when left alone to work.

It is often a great disappointment to people looking for jobs when they figure out that employers just don't care if they miss out on someone. They are trying to avoid a bad hire more than they need to hit a 100% rate identifying all good hires. (Not to mention, if you cannot perform under stress, that is a negative aspect of your capabilities, and a fair reason to bring in someone who doesn't fail under stress.)

> They are trying to avoid a bad hire more than they need to hit a 100% rate identifying all good hires.

This is absolutely correct.

I mean, sure, hiring great people is hard enough that I hate to miss out on somebody great, but not nearly as much as I hate making a bad hire.

Bad hires cost a lot, and not just directly (cost of hiring, salary, etc.), but in time, stress, and motivation of the people they work with.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#142

Post by grogenaut »

BurningFrog wrote: post #119
isoskeles wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is providing a code editor or text editor different than writing it out on the whiteboard? I do a similar process and don't care if their syntax is exactly correct. I, maybe different from the person you're responding to, don't care if they use exact libraries in the precisely correct way. But I do care that they're able to come up with a plausible solution. At a point, I see people gripe about whiteboard intervi…

> How is providing a code editor or text editor different than writing it out on the whiteboard? At least for me, it's vastly better. In an editor, I'm in my element, I have autocomplete, things work they way they usually do and everything is much more comfortable. I could even throw together some quick tests and test drive my code!

That's if your used to using your laptop not your desktop, you didn't forget to charge it, the WiFi is working, you aren't missing your mouse keyboard montitor, etc. Ive had candidates many fuck all that up and spend 15 minutes fixing the ergonomics. Guess what it's a 25 minute coding exercise, good luck. If I give them a laptop, same deal.

After it all I still give them the option. Their computer ours or whiteboard.

Statistically ive found that the in ide ones don't get as far because they get hung up on syntax or project setup.

Interviewer and candidate tend to let things like missing curlys slide on whiteboard or just text editor. I don't even care if you get the size function name correct on a collection (I can't remember between the 7 languages I use) or similar.

This is data pulled from 500 interviews.

I don't think places would stop you if you wanted to use your laptop but I do think you're actually optimizing for the wrong thing.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#143

Post by bartread »

curtis wrote: post #132

I wonder if the right thing to do is to simply give interviewees a choice between whiteboard interviews and take home tests. I seem to be in a minority, but I personally prefer whiteboard interviews over take home tests, but I can easily understand why many people prefer take home.

To be honest, I wonder how much take home is for your benefit rather than the company's.

Hiring is extremely time-consuming and a big motivator for me to adopt take home problems as part of our process would be that it saves time for people who would otherwise be involved in interviews.

However, we're at a point where we're little enough known - and therefore don't have much cachet as a desirable place to work - that I'd prefer to invest the time in speaking with someone rather than send them a test.

It's all rather cold-blooded, which is unfortunate, but it's also the reality of hiring and having to deal with large numbers of applicants relative to the size of your team.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#144

Post by ori_b »

kokokokoko wrote: post #120
jboy55 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 'Work Hours' require someone to be oncall 24/7, you can ask that as part of your interview, but you can't infer that from other factors. Yes: "Our job requires you to be on-call 24/7, one week a month, can you commit to that?". No: "You said you didn't have time for the take home test because you have a family. The family will get in the way of 24/7 support" Also yes: "you will be traveling 5 days a week for your…

As someone who has been in this industry for a long time and seen a lot, this still baffles me. Who agrees to being on call 24/7 for a week? Especially when you are getting paid a typical professional salary? It seems absurd. I've always been active after hours and willing to jump in when things happen. But this idea that you are essentially working (since you need to always be somewhere you can start working within…

> Who agrees to being on call 24/7 for a week? Especially when you are getting paid a typical professional salary? It seems absurd. I've always been active after hours and willing to jump in when things happen.

That's called being on-call 24/7 for the entire span of your job.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#145

Post by nasalgoat »

kokokokoko wrote: post #120
jboy55 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 'Work Hours' require someone to be oncall 24/7, you can ask that as part of your interview, but you can't infer that from other factors. Yes: "Our job requires you to be on-call 24/7, one week a month, can you commit to that?". No: "You said you didn't have time for the take home test because you have a family. The family will get in the way of 24/7 support" Also yes: "you will be traveling 5 days a week for your…

As someone who has been in this industry for a long time and seen a lot, this still baffles me. Who agrees to being on call 24/7 for a week? Especially when you are getting paid a typical professional salary? It seems absurd. I've always been active after hours and willing to jump in when things happen. But this idea that you are essentially working (since you need to always be somewhere you can start working within…

Going on 25 years now of being oncall. It's very, very good incentive to make sure the systems are optimized and working nicely.

I get a page about once a month, maybe. Because I do my job.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#146

Post by courtf »

grogenaut wrote: post #134
courtf wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you ask a violinist to draw the chords they would play on a whiteboard, or would you hand them a violin?

No but I'd have an architect give me plans for a house written out. I'm not hiring artists I'm hiring engineer's. I'm not hiring your for your gorgeous code in x language, I'm hiring for problem solving skills and communication. And I do let people use computer or whiteboard, computer tends to more complicated logistically (wifi, preference of ide, power, logins, etc). A whiteboard only fails to work if I don't have…

Software is far more art than you think, and rigid, formulaic thinking can be a detriment to good problem solving skills. Especially when solving something you can't just look up on the internet.

If your engineers aren't writing clean, readable, maintainable code that solves problems as simply as possible (ie, gorgeous), I'm not sure your hiring practices are doing you any good.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#147

Post by grogenaut »

courtf wrote: post #146
grogenaut wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No but I'd have an architect give me plans for a house written out. I'm not hiring artists I'm hiring engineer's. I'm not hiring your for your gorgeous code in x language, I'm hiring for problem solving skills and communication. And I do let people use computer or whiteboard, computer tends to more complicated logistically (wifi, preference of ide, power, logins, etc). A whiteboard only fails to work if I don't have…

Software is far more art than you think, and rigid, formulaic thinking can be a detriment to good problem solving skills. Especially when solving something you can't just look up on the internet. If your engineers aren't writing clean, readable, maintainable code that solves problems as simply as possible (ie, gorgeous), I'm not sure your hiring practices are doing you any good.

I don't think you even read what I said.

I didn't say that I was looking for sloppy people who could use a whiteboard.

I specifically interview for understandable (maintainable) code, good problem solving, and communication skills.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#148

Post by 11thEarlOfMar »

jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

We do the take home tests because it allows the candidate to work in a more natural way, without the pressure of completing in an hour, under scrutiny and in such a highly consequential circumstance. Also, we allow as much time as they need to take to get it done. Some come back in a couple of days, some in a week.

Then we have them present their code in a code review in front of the team. This gives a good indication of their ability to explain their thinking and approach clearly and is a good read on their communication skills.

So far, no complaints, though it is true that many of them get a bit wrapped up in the exercise and spend far more than the 2 hours we are asking for.

Re: A listing of companies that don't do whiteboard job interviews

#149

Post by deepGem »

jboy55 wrote: post #44

Its interesting how many of these companies have 'take home' challenges or projects. Even though the companies may say, "This should only take an hour", 99% of the time, it occupies my entire night/weekend, if not in coding but in thought. There's always something more you could do. Its presented as an objective test, but its very subjective, just as much as the whiteboard test. With the whiteboard test, as a candida…

I have taken multiple of these take home assignments. One from Microsoft as well. What was a 2 day affair turned out to be a week long affair. I was asked to implement one of the iOS outlook features which involved multiple nesting of scrollviews in gridviews and what not. Took me 4 days and when I submitted the repo, the response I got was 'sorry this doesn't cut it and we can't proceed'. I mean, can't the reviewers at least provide some comment in the repo ?

OTOH, I took a Facebook remote test that was timed (I think 30 mins) and the reviewer exactly told me why I didn't clear the test within 24 hours of submission. I don't necessarily agree with everything Facebook does but I really appreciate this level of response.

So, I'll happily do a whiteboard test no matter how unrealistic it is.

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