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Amazon Removed Anti-Vax Documentaries from Prime Video

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Re: Amazon Removed Anti-Vax Documentaries from Prime Video

#81

Post by turtlecloud »

melling wrote: post #26
freedomben wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some that would say that a government should not be able to force you to inject things into your own or your children's bodies. They would call that tyranny. Much of the pro-choice argument regarding abortion is based on the idea that you own your own body. My kids get vaccinated, but I sympathize with the anti-vaxxers arguments regarding governmental force.

It's a bit of a public health nuisance when kids start dying because other people don't want their kids to get a measles shot It's hard to believe that tens of thousands of kids still die from the measles every year.

The same argument could be said that kids born to unwilling mothers leads to social and moral decay. If you are pro abortion/ pro choice you must be pro choice for anti vaxx.

Re: Amazon Removed Anti-Vax Documentaries from Prime Video

#82

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

throwawaymath wrote: post #51
ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phlogiston, luminiferous aether, and Newtonian mechanics also once had "overwhelming scientific consensus". " The ends do not justify the means. " Even for something as important as addressing climate change.

Are you implying classical mechanics is comparable to the anti-vaccination movement? Are you aware we've successfully landed people on the Moon using calculations derived by classical mechanics? That example has harmed your argument, not supported it. Just because we have quantum mechanics doesn't mean we can't make true statements about the world using Newtonian mechanics. As for phlogiston and luminiferous aether -…

> Just because we have quantum mechanics doesn't mean we can't make true statements about the world using Newtonian mechanics.

True statements? A scientist would acknowledge them as adequate approximations, not true statements.

And by the way, let's see you build GPS (relativity) or computers (QM by way of semiconductor physics) using Newtonian mechanics.

> More importantly, they were positive statements about the world. You're comparing them to the demand for evidence that vaccinations are harmful, to which the best rebuttal is a counter-demand to prove a negative (that they're not harmful).

That's precisely the point. Science doesn't need self-appointed police squashing silly ideas like anti-vax precisely because science makes "positive statements about the world." Repeatable results speak for themselves.

[EDIT] To clarify further, allowing squashing of ideas because they don't agree with current scientific consensus will just make Planck's lament all the worse. ("A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.")

> What else you got?

After that last line, a slightly lower opinion of your ability to debate in a civil fashion.

Re: Amazon Removed Anti-Vax Documentaries from Prime Video

#83

Post by hn19128ks8 »

pbreit wrote: post #5

Unpopular opinion: I don’t like this. Would much prefer that ideas compete. Id sort of give Amazon a pass since, unlike twitter, Reddit, Facebook & YouTube, it doesn’t make many promises regarding the free exchange of ideas. But still.

Today in 1985 Amazon pulls all videos discussing links between H.pylori and ulcers from its Prime platform. Many HN users laud the decision to remove the content that a "scientific consensus" of the medical community have "proven false".

'This is not about competing markets of ideas', the HN users are saying, "these are real doctors -- real scientists -- saying that the 'facts' in these videos cannot possibly be true. Therefore these are 'false facts' and should be removed."

https://www.cdc.gov/ulcer/history.htm

Re: Amazon Removed Anti-Vax Documentaries from Prime Video

#84

Post by matt4077 »

markdown wrote: post #31
pbreit wrote: post #5

Unpopular opinion: I don’t like this. Would much prefer that ideas compete. Id sort of give Amazon a pass since, unlike twitter, Reddit, Facebook & YouTube, it doesn’t make many promises regarding the free exchange of ideas. But still.

I mean, if you made a documentary about it being physically impossible to incinerate 6M humans in the span of time the nazi's had to do it in the ovens that they had to do it in, you'd get banned from Amazon before you could so much as publish your video. But you believing such a fringe nazi conspiracy theory couldn't kill me or my neighbour. My children wouldn't be at a real risk of dying from spending time with you…

Holocaust denial isn't victimless. In fact, I would argue it's far more dangerous than these vaccine hoaxes.

"It happened, and therefore it can happen again" is the motto here. It is the singularity of barbarism that has defined politics in Europe and the US ever since; the crown witness against militarism, nationalism, and populism.

Re: Amazon Removed Anti-Vax Documentaries from Prime Video

#85

Post by lern_too_spel »

freedomben wrote: post #30
lern_too_spel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How well has letting people air these ideas worked? Compare the number of Nazis in Germany (and hate crimes committed by same) vs. Lost Causers in the American South and their hate crimes. It's one thing to hold a belief in a certain threshold for freedom of speech. It's another thing to state without evidence that it has better outcomes.

There's a really nice place you may consider as an option that tightly controls information. No need to worry about encountering bad ideas in the People's Republic of Korea. There's also China. They have a much safer internet there. Not as safe as DPRK's internet, but still pretty good.

And yet Germany is nothing like DPRK or PRC. Maybe there exist freedom of speech thresholds in between the extremes of Somalia (where you are free to shout "fire!" in crowded theaters) and DPRK?

It amazes me how many Americans religiously believe that their thresholds are the only ones that work and that the only other option is some ridiculous extreme. You can see the same religiosity in weapons freedoms. Somalians have more. North Koreans have less. Yet there are many working thresholds in between, most of which empirically perform better than the US's.

Re: Amazon Removed Anti-Vax Documentaries from Prime Video

#86

Post by matt4077 »

_red wrote: post #71
throwawaymath wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'm not downvoting you since 1) I can't, you responded to me; and 2) you're not being offtopic. And you're at least defending your position without memeing even if I disagree with it. That being said, I'm glad you clarified because I figured the implication you were getting at is these are harmful vaccines. Am I correct in saying your grievance is a lack of evidence that they're helpful ?

[flagged]

I'm flagging this for spreading misinformation.

WHO:

"[..] measles, which we know to be about 98% effective"

"Most routine childhood vaccines are effective for 85% to 95% of recipients"

https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/initiative/detection/immu...

Re: Amazon Removed Anti-Vax Documentaries from Prime Video

#88

Post by belltaco »

turtlecloud wrote: post #81
melling wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit of a public health nuisance when kids start dying because other people don't want their kids to get a measles shot It's hard to believe that tens of thousands of kids still die from the measles every year.

The same argument could be said that kids born to unwilling mothers leads to social and moral decay. If you are pro abortion/ pro choice you must be pro choice for anti vaxx.

Abortions don't create negative externalities like the anti-vaxx crowd does.

Re: Amazon Removed Anti-Vax Documentaries from Prime Video

#89

Post by belltaco »

_red wrote: post #67
everybodyknows wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's well known that each year's influenza vaccine is produced with imperfect knowledge of what strains may prove most dangerous later on in contagion season, after several months of selection/evolution/travel time.

So you're saying: We don't know if its effective, because its really really hard. However, we should make it illegal to refuse. Its bracing how anti-science you sound.

Who is saying it should be illegal to refuse the flu vaccine?

Re: Amazon Removed Anti-Vax Documentaries from Prime Video

#90

Post by throwawaymath »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #82
throwawaymath wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying classical mechanics is comparable to the anti-vaccination movement? Are you aware we've successfully landed people on the Moon using calculations derived by classical mechanics? That example has harmed your argument, not supported it. Just because we have quantum mechanics doesn't mean we can't make true statements about the world using Newtonian mechanics. As for phlogiston and luminiferous aether -…

> Just because we have quantum mechanics doesn't mean we can't make true statements about the world using Newtonian mechanics. True statements? A scientist would acknowledge them as adequate approximations, not true statements. And by the way, let's see you build GPS (relativity) or computers (QM by way of semiconductor physics) using Newtonian mechanics. > More importantly, they were positive statements about the wo…

Your first sentence nitpicks the word "truth" and ignores the spirit of the point. Your second ignores my point about the validity of Newtonian mechanics and, in the process, detracts from your own point about approximations instead of absolutes. It's also wrong for what it's worth - again, NASA used computers to get us on the Moon. Computers need not be digital.

I don't really care what your opinion is of my ability to debate in a civil fashion. That you are incorrect is not an opportunity for me to persuade you; your arguments are simply a vehicle for convincing the onlookers reading the back-and-forth. And to be blunt, when you're resorting to nitpicking words, ignoring points and comparing Newtonian mechanics to anti-vaccination, I also don't really care about abandoning civility.

And if I'm being honest I do get a certain satisfaction from challenging your examples in such a cavalier fashion, because they're frankly silly and incomparable. Considering the stakes (compromising herd immunity, implicitly defending harmful ignorance) I am all-in on censorship and abandoning decorum.

But you're free not to debate with me if you consider me gauche or impolite, just as Amazon is free to censor all the videos on its own platform.

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