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California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

latimes.com

161–170 of 214 posts

Re: California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

#161
post #6

Wide open rural land, little environmental or people impact, some of the best consistent sun in the world

Destroying a virgin desert ecosystem with an industrial installation is not little environmental impact.

Lighting the atmosphere on fire is not a little environmental impact either. We have to choose to loose something to live a modern lifestyle.

Re: California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

#162
post #6

Wide open rural land, little environmental or people impact, some of the best consistent sun in the world

Do you live in this community? My guess is no. And that’s the crux of the issue, though the article buries the lede somewhat.

Right do you live in a community that loses mountains to coal mining? That loses the coast to sea level rise? That has a nuclear facility in their back yard? There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Re: California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

#163
post #30
post #12

It took me a while to find out why locals were saying solar farms cause dust storms. The locals claim solar farms destabilize the soil. Dust isn’t in the interest of the energy producer because it lowers efficiency so my assumption is that they would do everything to limit dust. I guess I’m surprised that the LA Times would publish a claim like that without comment or caveat.

They’re just reporting what each side is saying without arguing against their claims. They leave it to the reader to make of it what they will. In my personal opinion, this is how reporting should be. Don’t do my thinking for me and don’t lead me in a particular direction. I doubt most people actually believe dust has anything to do with it. They don’t want these infrastructure projects near them, plain and simple.

This is a type of enlightened centrism. Journalists should report but aldo be fact finders for the viewers. There is something about actual facts that I find newsworthy.

Re: California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

#164
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re just reporting what each side is saying without arguing against their claims. They leave it to the reader to make of it what they will. In my personal opinion, this is how reporting should be. Don’t do my thinking for me and don’t lead me in a particular direction. I doubt most people actually believe dust has anything to do with it. They don’t want these infrastructure projects near them, plain and simple.

In my view, this is a problem if each side is making claims without any attempt at quantifying or disclosing the relative magnitude of effects. That's a case where a reporter could do a little digging and fill in those details. For instance, how much dust? How is it stirred up? And so forth. You can still make of it what you will, but with better information. I encounter the same thing dealing with engineers. They wi…

This seems to be one of the most common logical fallacies, especially in politics. I dont know if it has a name, but I call it "qualification without quantification".

It creates a logic chain that could happen, without any discussion of actual probabilities or costs.

For example banning of assault rifles, discusses how it could save lives. People are surprised to learn that there are less than 200 deaths per year from any type of rifle.

The same goes for universal background checks.

Re: California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

#165
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s so obvious you shouldn’t need evidence. And that's how we end up with things like "obviously, we cannot have a climate change, I mean it's cold on the outside!!".

An experiment you can reproduce in a vehicle driving on a dirt road is a bit easier than measuring global climate change.

Experiment?! We don't want to hear about experiments!

Re: California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When projects like these are planned, they consider the entire lifecycle of the project, including end of life.

People said the asme thing with Nuclear. Just because they say they are doesn't mean they actually are.

When a solar facility is decommissioned you have a bunch of junk, much of which can be recycled. When a nuclear facility is decommissioned you have a bunch of radioactive nuclear waste.

Re: California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

#167
This is the type of decision-making the authors of the Green New Deal need to grapple with. E.g., the Green New Deal calls for high speed rail everywhere. But when you actually try to build HSR people in affected communities file lawsuits and force decisions that increase the cost, slow down trains and delay construction. For the Green New Deal to actually happen, the federal government would need to override local decision-making.

Re: California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

#168
post #33

Lawmakers want their own share and haven't been given one.

Yeah it's like the developers don't even know how to lobby. They should take a lesson from e.g. Foxconn, who had everyone important in Wisconsin wrapped around their finger.

Re: California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

#169
post #156
post #54

San Bernardino County is home to the Ivanpah Solar Power Facility [1], which is a mirror-focused solar thermal power plant. It generates a lot of glare and is controversial for its impact on animals. It also took several years to ramp up to its promised output. Solar panels don't have problem with glare, but the landscape of the county has large viewsheds of sloping treeless desert, so any facility will have a large…

> Solar panels don't have problem with glare You clearly haven't been on a highway leading straight towards a hillside panel cluster [1] at that particular time of day and year when the reflection trail of the panels passes over the road. It's much worse than going towards dawn or sunset because those are toned down do much by atmospheric attenuation. All you can do is blindly maintaining speed and hoping that nobody…

EDIT: I apologize. I misunderstood the statement.

It's the same light from the sun that you say is attenuated by the atmosphere before reaching your eyes that is reflected from the solar panels. It is literally impossible for it to be worse.

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Re: California's San Bernardino County restricts construction of solar, wind farms

#170
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Solar panels don't have problem with glare You clearly haven't been on a highway leading straight towards a hillside panel cluster [1] at that particular time of day and year when the reflection trail of the panels passes over the road. It's much worse than going towards dawn or sunset because those are toned down do much by atmospheric attenuation. All you can do is blindly maintaining speed and hoping that nobody…

EDIT: I apologize. I misunderstood the statement. It's the same light from the sun that you say is attenuated by the atmosphere before reaching your eyes that is reflected from the solar panels. It is literally impossible for it to be worse. -->

The problem is that it's coming from ground level, instead of up in the sky.
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