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Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

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Re: Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

#191

Here's something I don't quite understand, and where some of this feels a little hypocritical: Apple, the most valuable company in the world, could be working to reform patent law in order to make this a non-issue. Everyone talks about US politics as pay-to-play, it should be possible for Apple, Google, MS, Amazon, etc., to lobby for Software Patents, for example, to be reclassified as "math" and therefor not patenta…

> Everyone talks about US politics as pay-to-play, it should be possible

You are assuming that if "everybody talks" about something, it must be true. Unfortunately, it is not often the case.

Re: Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

#192
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any reason why those judges don't also laugh them away? What do those jurisdictions have to gain? You'd think that tech companies would have stronger lobbying than patent trolls. What incentives do courts have to side with patent trolls?

It's a local industry. They have a whole foodchain based on this and everybody stands to profit. I think in an earlier HN thread somebody also mentioned that in the early 20th century there were also towns that simply rob and kill any passer-by that would lodge in a hotel, with the sheriff etc. all complicit. In a sense this is typically American isn't it. Similar is how some towns would issue tickets for infringemen…

No, this is not typically American.

Re: Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

#193
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. My previous company has to deal with trolls like this. They somehow managed a patent on turning 2d pictures into 3d panoramas which Google and iPhone do in the phones. We used software from Germany but since it violated the patent and we were tiny, boom lawsuit. This supreme Court ruling saved the company because we got it transferred to our state and the judge laughed them away. It would be like suing a groc…

Is there any reason why those judges don't also laugh them away? What do those jurisdictions have to gain? You'd think that tech companies would have stronger lobbying than patent trolls. What incentives do courts have to side with patent trolls?

URL: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sG9UMMq2dz4 (Austin Myers)

URL: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3bxcc3SM_KA (John Olivier)

Above two YouTube videos I’ve been passing around in regard to sometimes peculiar nature of patents law in US and in particular that of eastern district of TX.

Re: Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

#194
post #192
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a local industry. They have a whole foodchain based on this and everybody stands to profit. I think in an earlier HN thread somebody also mentioned that in the early 20th century there were also towns that simply rob and kill any passer-by that would lodge in a hotel, with the sheriff etc. all complicit. In a sense this is typically American isn't it. Similar is how some towns would issue tickets for infringemen…

No, this is not typically American.

[deleted]

Re: Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

#195
post #161
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: Last line. Yep. I do. In fact, the some of the cases your articles refer to directly refer to my amicus curiae contributions. The Federal Circuit was created, in part, to create certainty in patents. They keep trying to make frameworks, but they've all got issues. The Supreme Court doesn't like that they have issues, and blows up their rulings, but does not put anything affirmative back in place. So, functionally…

So you're an intellectual property lawyer? In this debate that gives you a fairly obvious bias. Admittedly it also makes you better informed than me on this topic. But I still feel comfortable disagreeing when my position both makes sense to me, and is supported by other people who I know to be knowledgeable. You and the Federal Court both seem to believe that trying to make a framework should be the goal. Not everyo…

>So you're an intellectual property lawyer?

I think the implication you're trying to make is that I make my bread and butter litigating patents or something, so I've got the incentive to defend the system. I don't. I make my money elsewhere but I spent my entire legal academic career as an IP policy guy. Or maybe IP critic is more accurate. Anyways, let's just say WIPO staff REALLY don't like my questions after their talks.

The rant was entertaining to read, but it's a 101-level critique of the system that betrays some big gaps in knowledge. To be successful (and we're on the same side here) you need to be better than this. I won't exhaustively deal with your piece but I'll point out a few easy weaknesses.

Your first quote isn't criticizing the existence or attempt to create a consistent legal framework. It is criticizing the strategy used in creating them.

Let's say we're trying to create an anti-violence framework. "Don't punch people" and "Don't punch nice people" are two frameworks, but the second framework has a flexible element that lets you read-in self defense under the guise that aggressors are not 'nice people'. However, it also lets you justify wars of aggression as long as the targets of your violence are not 'nice people'. Oops. Flexibility isn't a uniform good - it lets laws be twisted by judges in both good and bad ways and allows courts more discretion in their application of fact to law. If we trust the courts to exercise good judgement in a specific area, then we'd be happier with giving them more opportunity to inject humanity and good sense into the law. In other areas, where we view the institution of courts as disconnected and anti-social, we'd want the opposite.

Is flexibility really what you want when your argument is that a key level of courts is faulty?

This 'certainty vs. flexibility' balance is one of the core tensions in rule-making, and is commonly discussed in rulings, academic work, etc. You actually advocate against flexibility. "No software patents" is about as inflexible as it gets, even if it's the best policy choice.

So, in the context of rule making strategies, let's turn to the Federal Circuit.

Alice exists. It is the leading case regarding patentability of software related patents, and has significantly lowered the survival of bullshit software patents (e.g. Claim 1. lets do something mundane ... but on a COMPUTER) on review. The test in Alice as espoused by the Supreme Court was largely lifted from the Federal Circuit court. This is an example of the Federal Circuit court getting it right - the framework they put together is a home run. It cuts software patent trolling down significantly, is intellectually consistent within IP, provides helpful instruction to the USPTO regarding examination of software patents, etc.

The issue at the Federal Circuit level isn't that the Federal Circuit is serially stupid, or that the Supreme Court is a bully. It's that they're trying to deal with a hard problem and the Circuit's goal is to try, while the Supreme Court's goal is to get it right. So both Courts are doing their job (trying and rejecting failures, respectively), but the problem is that the Federal Court's success rate is low.

Is it low because they're assholes? Is it low because the problem of sorting out patentability is just plain HARD? Is it because the courts are addressing a policy issue with a panoply of stakeholders, primarily through the lens of the litigants (with some token consideration of amicus submissions)? Is it because fact-based policy development is hampered by obstructions in the legislative level, which has resulted in the offloading of legislative treatment to the courts and USPTO in respect of patents? Is it because patent policy is now constrained by international-level consensus (and all of the problems attached thereto)?

I think the anger you feel in respect of the problem existing for so long leads you to want to believe the first explanation is accurate, but my argument in this thread is that it's not a rogue level of judicial review that's ruining things. The problem is more complicated, more difficult, and ultimately harder to tackle with intellectual honesty than just pointing a finger at a few judges.

Re: Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

#196
post #195
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're an intellectual property lawyer? In this debate that gives you a fairly obvious bias. Admittedly it also makes you better informed than me on this topic. But I still feel comfortable disagreeing when my position both makes sense to me, and is supported by other people who I know to be knowledgeable. You and the Federal Court both seem to believe that trying to make a framework should be the goal. Not everyo…

>So you're an intellectual property lawyer? I think the implication you're trying to make is that I make my bread and butter litigating patents or something, so I've got the incentive to defend the system. I don't. I make my money elsewhere but I spent my entire legal academic career as an IP policy guy. Or maybe IP critic is more accurate. Anyways, let's just say WIPO staff REALLY don't like my questions after their…

I would actually be interested in taking this exchange to email. You clearly are informed on a topic that I don't understand as well as I'd like. I may not wind up agreeing with you, but I would like to challenge what I think.

First between specific decisions handed down, the fact that a chief justice had to step down due to ethics complaints, and the complaints of Supreme Court justices, I am still strongly inclined to the belief that there is something wrong with that court. There are real challenges in addition, but they are "in addition".

Second I completely agree that there are problems with international-level consensus. The biggest of which is that lobbying organizations have proven adept at using international negotiations as a ratchet to get everyone to agree to stronger rules, that then everyone is bound to because it is an international agreement. The classic example of which is the way that Disney and others have used international treaties to repeatedly increase the length and strength of copyright rules. But that said, my impression is that the US is pushing strong patent regimes on other countries, and not vice versa.

Next, you're putting words into my mouth that I didn't say. I didn't say that there should be no software patents. I said that most software patents should be considered invalid, including all that have my name on them. Those are very different statements, and there is no direct path from what I actually said to what you concluded about me. Also note that my statement is consistent with Paul Graham's essay that I linked to which said, among other things, that if you're against software patents, you should be against all patents.

Now let's move to what I actually think.

The core of my frustration is a combination of the following things. The first is that the non-obvious bar to patents is set way too low. The second is that our legal regime makes patent trolling far too easy and profitable, to the detriment of those producing real innovations. The third is that our system does not create incentives that promote the progress we are aiming for.

We can debate in an ideal world what combination of things would be used to solve this problem. However in our world they are being solved - badly - in the courts.

Still in an ideal world, how would I want my concerns addressed?

First, whether an improvement is obvious. Today we frequently get into dueling opinions of experts. Which one do we trust? Formulaic rules cannot truly grasp what is or is not obvious. And who it should be obvious to.

I would like to see non-obviousness become more of an affirmative defense. If I thought of X and never heard of you, never saw your product, and you never publicized your invention, that is direct evidence that your invention was, in fact, obvious to me. Which means that your patent should be invalid. Whether or not there was prior art. Your counter to this argument should be evidence that you publicized widely, your invention was widely distributed, or I did, in fact, have personal reason to know of your discovery.

Related, I would love it if the patent holder had to demonstrate non obviousness by demonstrating the existence of multiple people and organizations with the knowledge and incentives to have thought of it who failed to do so over a period of several years. It is frequently the case that a new technology creates a rush of patents on everything to do with that technology. Everything becomes "non obvious because nobody did it yet". I think it should be the opposite. Rather than a patent land grab, raise the barrier to patentability until the passage of time demonstrates that remaining ideas are actually not obvious.

That alone should eliminate many of the most problematic software patents. And it is particularly a problem in software because software constantly has of new technologies coming out that nobody has thought about, and therefore it is hard to tell what is or is not obvious. (Leading to dueling experts debating obviousness.)

Second, patent trolling. Alice improves things by getting rid of one class of bad patents. But there are a lot of classes of bad patents. That decision is chipping around the edges without trying to solve the problem. Instead I would like to see decisions that allow evidence of patent trolling behavior to be used as a reason to raise the bar against the would be patent enforcer. I don't so much have a concrete solution as the hope that enabling some sort of "unclean hands" argument against patent trolls would represent a significant improvement.

And third, about the incentives. The legislation said nothing about it, but the Constitution is clear. The purpose of patent law is to encourage progress. If the patent holder cannot demonstrate that they are engaged in activities that encourage progress, activities such as commercializing their invention or publicizing their discovery, then the patent should be invalidated. Congress should have no right to grant a temporary monopoly if you are not progressing science or the useful arts.

I realize that this may seem like an extreme position. But I also truly believe that it would be a significant improvement.

Re: Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

#197
post #196
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So you're an intellectual property lawyer? I think the implication you're trying to make is that I make my bread and butter litigating patents or something, so I've got the incentive to defend the system. I don't. I make my money elsewhere but I spent my entire legal academic career as an IP policy guy. Or maybe IP critic is more accurate. Anyways, let's just say WIPO staff REALLY don't like my questions after their…

I would actually be interested in taking this exchange to email. You clearly are informed on a topic that I don't understand as well as I'd like. I may not wind up agreeing with you, but I would like to challenge what I think. First between specific decisions handed down, the fact that a chief justice had to step down due to ethics complaints, and the complaints of Supreme Court justices, I am still strongly inclined…

>I would actually be interested in taking this exchange to email.

Sure. I would like to, but only if you treat my points charitably (you haven't :(.) - the objective is to learn. If that's not an issue, though, would the btilly email address in your profile work? I can send a full reply there.

Some brief notes to think about in the meantime:

Patents have multiple social functions. Encouraging progress can be performed by achieving other related, intermediary, policy steps. For instance, if we weaken industry-peripheral patents, do we just cause firms to resort to secrecy (and is that better for society over the long run)? Are there other solutions other than 'yes patent'/'no patent' depending on the patent type? Do patent licenses required for industry-participation have better solutions than just 'no patents'? See: Standards collectives/FRAND licensing terms/etc?

Obviousness is VERY difficult to judge years later after having read a patent. Much like seeing the answer to a puzzle or math problem, it's hard to go back and feign ignorance in your analysis, and once you read a lot of patents, suddenly you see the sweep of technological development very differently.

Obviousness pt 2: What if patents are needed to secure the benefit from an R&D effort. Is it worthwhile to say 'we shouldn't research this [New Medicine] because it seems obvious'? How else could we reasonably finance that R&D work? Obviousness analysis is done in reference to a 'person having ordinary skill in the art', which is an incredibly flexible legal fiction. Again, do you have issues with flexibility being used to achieve policy goals you don't agree with? Note that the artificiality of this test is amplified because we analyze this person at the time the patent was filed. Next, since 2016, KSR is the leading case in the states regarding obviousness. The KSR test performs a series of comparisons between what the field knew and what typical improvements or techniques the field uses to determine if the improvement was obvious or not. This test is heavily criticized for making innovations in slow but consistently developed fields far harder to patent, despite the fact that patents in those fields are less controversial than those in rapidly iterating fields.

What specific elements of our legal regime make patent trolling too easy and profitable? Is it the cost of litigation? Is it how IP rights can be assigned at all (and what are the ramifications if we prevent assignment)? Is this a quantitative problem that we can fix by tweaking the numbers a bit or a categorical one which requires fundamental changes in the system? Btw, how large do you think the patent trolling problem is, dollar wise? Is it a priority as far as reforms go? What else do you think are competing legislative/regulatory priorities?

Prior art is already a bar to patentability.

Re: Unclean hands. Vexatious litigant protections exist in the court system independently of patent litigation. They aren't used much. Why do you think that is the case?

Software is not the only industry that interacts with the patent system, and other industries have different needs and are influenced by patents differently (which, btw, is a core flaw with PG's note). If you want to change core elements of the patent system, how do those modifications affect other industries?

Re: Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

#198
post #197
post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would actually be interested in taking this exchange to email. You clearly are informed on a topic that I don't understand as well as I'd like. I may not wind up agreeing with you, but I would like to challenge what I think. First between specific decisions handed down, the fact that a chief justice had to step down due to ethics complaints, and the complaints of Supreme Court justices, I am still strongly inclined…

>I would actually be interested in taking this exchange to email. Sure. I would like to, but only if you treat my points charitably (you haven't :(.) - the objective is to learn. If that's not an issue, though, would the btilly email address in your profile work? I can send a full reply there. Some brief notes to think about in the meantime: Patents have multiple social functions. Encouraging progress can be performe…

Yes, that email address will work.

I'm sorry that you do not believe that I have treated your points charitably.

First on encouraging progress, it is a complex set of issues.

For basic research I'm in agreement with https://issues.org/perspective-is-the-bayh-dole-act-stifling... and the successful approach outlined at https://www.chronicle.com/article/Michael-Milkens-Attack-on/... that progress is maximized when we fund lots of ideas, make them share information quickly, and let them build on each other. The incentives of patents run exactly opposite from that. If we're paying for basic research, I do not want it locked away in patents. (Obviously private research is a different story, companies need an incentive to engage in that.)

Next there is the problem of pharma. The challenge here is that proving effectiveness and safety to the FDA's satisfaction is extremely expensive. Patents are their route to recouping that. The fix that I would like requires legislation, but it is to give a patent monopoly to the company that began the FDA certification process first. That would both meet the needs of medicine, and also remove the current broken incentives that make it impossible to get anyone to pay for testing of treatments that are not covered by patents. (As an example, helminthic therapy for a variety of autoimmune disorders is extremely unlikely to go anywhere because there is no patent protection under which the costs of FDA trials could be recouped.)

Now on obviousness, I agree that it is hard to judge after the fact, once you have seen the idea. Secondly what is obvious very much depends on who it is who it is obvious to. With my math background, things are often obvious to me that aren't to other programmers. But which are obvious to anyone else with a similar background. Of which many exist. What is the appropriate peer group to judge, say, a contribution that I made to an advertising system?

This is why I would prefer a system where the patenter has to supply evidence that it could have been discovered, but wasn't. Contrary to the KSR test, this should make it easier to get a patent in a field that is slow moving rather than fast moving. Which I think is appropriate. A field that is already seeing innovation doesn't need patents to encourage more, and will be hurt more by typical patent periods. This is reversed in slow moving fields, where long patent terms are not such a problem and which could probably use the incentive more.

On patent trolling, I've seen estimates of the cost of patent trolling to the tune of around $30 billion a year (see https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2091210 for a citation). If you assume that there are 4 million software developers in the US with an average salary of $90k/year, that's 1/12 of the total salaries of all software developers. This is a pretty big priority. Now not all of that money would have been spent on research, but it is a pretty safe guess that patent trolling does reduce month available for research by several billion dollars a year.

Why is patent trolling too easy and profitable? Well because the bar to getting bad patents is too low, it is too easy to threaten people, and even if you think the patent has no merit, the risk of it being ruled valid after all are high enough that most companies roll over, and then there is the fact that you know you'll likely face the troll in courts that have historically been extremely friendly to patent trolls. East Texas and then the Federal Court. Though, luckily, the first court is unlikely to have the same clout going forward that it has historically.

On unclean hands, because patent trolls register a company per patent. So odds are that the company going after you has never actually has a lawsuit go through trial. And even if you go through the effort of getting them declared a vexatious litigant, the next patent troll owned by the same umbrella company and represented by the same lawyer is unimpeded. It is theoretically possible to go after the lawyers involved for barratry, but I do not know of anyone who has done so.

And as for changing core elements of the patent system and affecting other industries, I believe that the changes that I suggest would actually work out well for multiple industries. Though admittedly one of my suggestions is an entirely new type of protection to cover the needs of medical research.

Re: Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

#199
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "all aspects"? An mom and pop shop in a small town can have better service than a megacorp by personally knowing its customer base and adapting its policies to individuals. Megacorp customer service, by comparison, always involves some level of bureaucracy.

Since we’re talking about Apple stores, here’s an anecdote about competing on service: My iPhone was rebooting at random, in the middle of use, with some regularity. I was in an area with no Apple store, so I swung by an authorised Apple repairer/reseller. I explained my problem, and the guy around the counter, while very apologetic, explained there was no way I was having my phone swapped out. He didn’t have stock o…

Apple authorized repair shops are the worst. They have so many rules imposed by Apple that they can't provide good service.

An iPhone battery swap at an authorised reseller can take a week (!).

Non-authorised repair shops can often offer better service -- often they can replace a battery in 20 minutes. That's faster than at the Apple store. (but of course, if something goes wrong, there's probably no warranty)

Re: Apple to Close Stores in Eastern District of Texas to Fight Patent Trolls

#200
post #198
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I would actually be interested in taking this exchange to email. Sure. I would like to, but only if you treat my points charitably (you haven't :(.) - the objective is to learn. If that's not an issue, though, would the btilly email address in your profile work? I can send a full reply there. Some brief notes to think about in the meantime: Patents have multiple social functions. Encouraging progress can be performe…

Yes, that email address will work. I'm sorry that you do not believe that I have treated your points charitably. First on encouraging progress, it is a complex set of issues. For basic research I'm in agreement with https://issues.org/perspective-is-the-bayh-dole-act-stifling... and the successful approach outlined at https://www.chronicle.com/article/Michael-Milkens-Attack-on/... that progress is maximized when we f…

>I'm sorry that you do not believe

I stopped there. Re-read your posts. An insincere half apology isn't good soil to grow a strong conversation from. Good luck in the future and thank you for your interest in the field.

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