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Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

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Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#61

Post by perplamps »

JasonFruit wrote: post #59
perplamps wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of things we do out of convenience that we don't delight in, like walking over ants. There's a distinct difference between welcoming an easy alternative to walking over ants and delighting in squishing them under your feet (regardless of how brazenly you celebrate your actions).

Are you suggesting that you eat meat because paying $10/pound for a mediocre steak that gives you the moral willies is honestly more convenient than buying a can of beans and taking a vitamin supplement? I'm saying I delight in eating the flesh of an animal, and that knowing I gave it a comfortable, healthy life and a merciful death contributes to that pleasure. Your reasoning is pretty waffly and evasive to serve as…

> Are you suggesting that eating meat because paying $10/pound for a mediocre steak that gives you the moral willies is honestly more convenient than buying a can of beans and taking a vitamin supplement?

Humans naturally enjoy meat. As such, we have to go out of our way and sacrifice a little enjoyment if we want to be vegetarians (which I believe is the true reason you argue for meat). I don't really follow your argument that it would be more convenient to avoid all meat in our society in exchange for a can of beans and a vitamin. The crux of what PG was saying is that making it more convenient to avoid meat will lead to less meat consumption, which is hard to argue with.

> I'm saying I delight in eating the flesh of an animal, and that knowing I gave it a comfortable, healthy life and a merciful death contributes to that pleasure. Your reasoning is pretty waffly and evasive to serve as a basis for comparing someone to a serial killer — which, as you may have noticed, I resent, as I consider almost anyone would.

That resentment is what I previously referred to defensiveness of having your morals questioned. Of course you resent comparisons to your actions to things society has already deemed inappropriate. Whether those comparisons are justified or not is up to you (and society), but you don't make it easy on yourself with your particular brand of justifications (which sound deranged). Imagine if you raised a child or pet dog, cut them open and ate them with the justification "that knowing I gave it a comfortable, healthy life and a merciful death contributes to that pleasure". The difference between murdering your pet dog and a pet pig are very slim in our society already, so I wonder how you'd imagine you sound if you just drew the line a little bit differently.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#62

Post by JasonFruit »

perplamps wrote: post #61
JasonFruit wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that you eat meat because paying $10/pound for a mediocre steak that gives you the moral willies is honestly more convenient than buying a can of beans and taking a vitamin supplement? I'm saying I delight in eating the flesh of an animal, and that knowing I gave it a comfortable, healthy life and a merciful death contributes to that pleasure. Your reasoning is pretty waffly and evasive to serve as…

> Are you suggesting that eating meat because paying $10/pound for a mediocre steak that gives you the moral willies is honestly more convenient than buying a can of beans and taking a vitamin supplement? Humans naturally enjoy meat. As such, we have to go out of our way and sacrifice a little enjoyment if we want to be vegetarians (which I believe is the true reason you argue for meat). I don't really follow your ar…

> That resentment is what I previously referred to defensiveness of having your morals questioned.

You mean when you compared my thinking to that of a serial killer, and called them hard to distinguish? Which, as I've expressed, is a conversational gambit unlikely to arouse sympathy? Yes, I found that put me on the defensive a bit. Did you notice that it didn't make me suddenly see your point in a blinding Damascus flash of light?

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#63

Post by yazboo »

chrisco255 wrote: post #42
yazboo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vegetarian who makes a point of being low key about it, not bringing it up unless asked, etc, there is almost endless judgment and questioning put forth in my direction. Every time I go out for a work lunch and order the black bean burger, or meatless sides at a BBQ joint or whatever, people want to dust off their freshman philosophy class ethical arguments. People with non-normative beliefs stand out from the n…

We'll look at WeWork, they banned their employees from expensing non-pescatarian meals. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example of an employer who banned their employees from expensing vegan meals.

One company among the thousands upon thousands of non-vege-/pescatarian companies limiting their meal reimbursement policy does not support the argument that there exist "so many vegans and vegetarians trying to moralize to the rest of world."

In fact, I believe it is evidence of the opposite: members of the normative culture are so protective of their own homogeneity, wittingly or not, that they consider a single example of heterodoxy to be intolerably deviant.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#64

Post by jtms »

chrisco255 wrote: post #42
yazboo wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a vegetarian who makes a point of being low key about it, not bringing it up unless asked, etc, there is almost endless judgment and questioning put forth in my direction. Every time I go out for a work lunch and order the black bean burger, or meatless sides at a BBQ joint or whatever, people want to dust off their freshman philosophy class ethical arguments. People with non-normative beliefs stand out from the n…

We'll look at WeWork, they banned their employees from expensing non-pescatarian meals. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example of an employer who banned their employees from expensing vegan meals.

Wow, an employer dictating my diet is where I draw a HARD line of “get the ____ out of my life”. This seems discriminatory and unethical to say the least.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#65

Post by jtms »

hprotagonist wrote: post #2

One thing i’d genuinely like to see more of in the US is easy and sanely priced access to wild game. Deer populations being what they are, and populations of environmentally troublesome species such as feral boars being what they are, it seems like a net win. i would love to be able to get my hands on venison or boar that’s been processed in a USDA-approved way, because the meat’s high quality, the animals had lives…

Deer and pig populations are indeed out of control in many places due to a lack of predators. More hunters are needed. An intriguing example of pest control was a series of videos of wild hog hunting in the most Texan way possible: from a helicopter. Exterminating 80-100 hogs per flight! Hopefully something is being done with all of that pork, but I do imagine regulation makes it very very hard to sell.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#66

Post by yazboo »

jtms wrote: post #64
chrisco255 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll look at WeWork, they banned their employees from expensing non-pescatarian meals. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an example of an employer who banned their employees from expensing vegan meals.

Wow, an employer dictating my diet is where I draw a HARD line of “get the ____ out of my life”. This seems discriminatory and unethical to say the least.

They aren't "dictating your diet" unless you plan on eating all of your meals during business travel. They are telling you the scope of items they are willing to reimburse.

It would seem far more discriminatory and unethical to me to ban the creation of vegetarian institutions. If not unethical, at least antithetical to any minimally principled formulation of capitalism.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#67

Post by mnm1 »

mattmanser wrote: post #19
tgb wrote: post #8

I think he's wrong about people not having loyalty to meat. There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. Think of the practically cult-like following bacon has. I recall a thread some years ago on Reddit's r/fitness with someone asking for vegan protein sources due to certain allergies or other health restrictions and it was spammed with dozens of comments along the lines of "bacon" an…

I think you're very wrong and pg is spot on. I remember when Vegan/Vegetarians were sneered at in the UK 25 years ago, but they aren't now. In the space of 25 years it's gone from being rare to see veggie options, to it being the norm to have at least 25% non-meat options on the menu. Attitudes change, and once it's gone, most people will eventually find the idea of rearing animals to kill repellant. If you can deliv…

This might be the case where you live, but it's definitely not the case in many countries around the world. I like to travel and part of the reason I gave up vegetarianism is because I was tired of eating the same stuff over and over again while traveling because there were no other options (caprese sandwich in Europe). Not to mention the extreme difficulty of limiting carbs and sugars while maintaining any kind of taste in vegetarian diets. As for synthetic meat, which is what pg is talking about, I can't possibly see it making inroads if it costs more than meat, which it sounds like pg is implying. Most people can barely afford meat as it is.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#68

Post by KozmoNau7 »

hprotagonist wrote: post #13
subpixel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think where seitan excels is where the meat it is substituting is heavily seasoned and in smaller pieces. I’d never eat a seitan log as a Thanksgiving turkey substitute, but ironically one of the things you discover when you begin to substitute meat is that a lot of “classics” are flavorless. Chicken, turkey and most fish flesh can be bland and rubbery, which is why they are fried or smothered in sauces as a rule.…

>Chicken, turkey and most fish flesh are bland and rubbery, which is why they are fried or smothered in sauces as a rule. Come visit. I'll bake you a chicken, and i only need about 6 ingredients to change your mind. (salt, pepper, chicken, butter, thyme, dijon mustard optional). Turkey has never been a favorite of mine, but I had an exceptionally good one that was salted and peppered and then cooked in a big green eg…

> "Come visit. I'll bake you a chicken, and i only need about 6 ingredients to change your mind. (salt, pepper, chicken, butter, thyme, dijon mustard optional)."

That's my favorite way to make a good quality chicken shine by itself, with nothing masking it or covering it up. Cold butter and dijon mustard just works so well with chicken.

I am extremely hesitant to replace actual meat for anything where you only process it very lightly, roast and the like. But for curries or lasagna and similar dishes, bring on the seitan and anything else. I'm a big fan of using mushrooms, both for their structure and for their flavors.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#69

Post by barsonme »

jtms wrote: post #65
hprotagonist wrote: post #2

One thing i’d genuinely like to see more of in the US is easy and sanely priced access to wild game. Deer populations being what they are, and populations of environmentally troublesome species such as feral boars being what they are, it seems like a net win. i would love to be able to get my hands on venison or boar that’s been processed in a USDA-approved way, because the meat’s high quality, the animals had lives…

Deer and pig populations are indeed out of control in many places due to a lack of predators. More hunters are needed. An intriguing example of pest control was a series of videos of wild hog hunting in the most Texan way possible: from a helicopter. Exterminating 80-100 hogs per flight! Hopefully something is being done with all of that pork, but I do imagine regulation makes it very very hard to sell.

I know some folks give it to charities. Others eat it. But a lot gets wasted. Ultimately they're pests, so wanton waste doesn't apply.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#70

Post by prestigious »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #16

FWIW I think he's predicting something which is already beginning to happen. Carl's Jr. (Hardees to you midwestern/east coast folks) recently added Beyond Meat patties to their menu ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-beyond-meat-carl-s-jr-idU... ). For a small price extra, you can get a not-farmed-meat burger and they're promoting it pretty heavily. I dropped in a while back, was surprised to see it on the menu, th…

Ya especially if they can get it for less than the meat burger. Once that happens it will be huge.
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