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Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

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Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#241

Post by dragonwriter »

cptskippy wrote: post #240
tomatocracy wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And even then the model S's range isn't enough. I do a 500 mile weekend roundtrip about once every couple of months and there's no way it would work for that as there's no place to charge overnight at the destination (250 miles away from home, which I do non-stop on a single tank of fuel). There are basically no fast chargers in the UK which you could guarantee being able to use on the route either, even if I didn't…

Honestly I feel these types of comments do more harm to EV adoption than anything else as they're used as justification to not adopt an EV by those who otherwise could. Most EVs today support a flavor of DC fast charging beyond L2, a Leaf can be charged up to 80% in like 15 or 20 minutes. That sounds like a lot but when those chargers are in Market or Restaurant lots where you can charge and shop/eat then they make s…

> Most EVs today support a flavor of DC fast charging beyond L2, a Leaf can be charged up to 80% in like 15 or 20 minutes. That sounds like a lot

Because it is a lot

> but when those chargers are in Market or Restaurant lots where you can charge and shop/eat then they make sense.

Which would be great, but that's generally not what the charging infrastructure is like today; there's now a decent probability of a route-convenient charger on a long trip, but there's not a great probability that it's in the parking lot of market or restaurant, and an even lower probability that it's one that you would have chosen but for the charger.

Most of the market/restaurant chargers—mostly supermarkets or box stores like IKEA—I've seen are in urban areas, virtually none in the kind of places that are places you need to stop for fuel (or charge, with an EV) on the way between widely spaced urban areas.

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#242

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

speedplane wrote: post #147
dd36 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that r&d is a sunk cost and that producing the vehicle is cash flow positive and will be even more so in 5 years, GM should be pedal to the metal. The loss per unit sold is a non-real accounting artifact. Frankly, it should be accounted for on the basis of the carrying cost of the r&d debt. If I open a bakery and buy a ton of expensive equipment, I will have huge accounting losses per cookie for years but I may…

> The loss per unit sold is a non-real accounting artifact. GM can clearly make money from this vehicle if the tighten up their production. I'm sure engineers there know exactly what needs to be done to get there. It probably takes investment, but there will only be a return on the investment if many more Bolts are sold. To sell more of these cars, they have to overcome public perception that they are some weird new…

> Unfortunately, engineering rarely changes the way someone feels about a product, marketing does.

I feel thats the main difference in philosophy between US and german car manufacturers. I guess theres is a place for both.

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#243

Post by logifail »

marvin wrote: post #225
logifail wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> high fuel costs mean that pure EVs already have a lower TCO than ICE vehicle Got a source for this claim? I bought a new ICE vehicle six months ago, in round figures it cost me $13,800 (that's the on the road price of the base model, including a couple of minor extras and all applicable taxes). The electric version of that exact same vehicle has a list price of $31,300. No, that isn't a typo. The salesman seemed fa…

I hope you're not basing your reasoning purely on what the sales representative of the dealership said about EVs. Car dealerships have an incentive to undersell EVs because they require less of the routine maintenance that combustion engine cars require (oil changes, brake pad changes). Dealerships make much of their money on servicing, so this is not in their interest. In Norway, a new electric car car is obviously…

> Dealerships make much of their money on servicing, so this is not in their interest

"Much of their money" - got a source for that?

At least where we are, there is a competitive market in servicing of ICE vehicles, and I won't be getting the new vehicle serviced at this dealership, I'll be going to a third party shop much closer (and cheaper). The vehicle warranty isn't affected.

> obviously better on a TCO basis, due to much cheaper fuel, no VAT or other taxes on purchase, free passage through toll roads, cheaper ferries and free parking

Thought experiment: what % of EV ownership will your country have to reach before those incentives disappear? There is this annoying issue of governments needing to raise tax revenue one way or another ...

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#245

Post by jvandonsel »

fraggle222 wrote: post #196

Should have been new Brand. I feel like the Chevy logo and branding didn't help much with Volt sales. They could have done something similar to what Toyota did with Scion. Create a unique logo and branding. Create a high tech brand that isn't associated with "Chevy". Is that just me?

Agreed. And what's worse is that GM recently announced that Cadillac would be their new flagship EV brand. As a Bolt owner I'm fine owning a Chevy, but I just can't see myself driving something with a Cadillac badge.

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#246

Post by cptskippy »

dragonwriter wrote: post #241
cptskippy wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I feel these types of comments do more harm to EV adoption than anything else as they're used as justification to not adopt an EV by those who otherwise could. Most EVs today support a flavor of DC fast charging beyond L2, a Leaf can be charged up to 80% in like 15 or 20 minutes. That sounds like a lot but when those chargers are in Market or Restaurant lots where you can charge and shop/eat then they make s…

> Most EVs today support a flavor of DC fast charging beyond L2, a Leaf can be charged up to 80% in like 15 or 20 minutes. That sounds like a lot Because it is a lot > but when those chargers are in Market or Restaurant lots where you can charge and shop/eat then they make sense. Which would be great, but that's generally not what the charging infrastructure is like today; there's now a decent probability of a route-…

I agree with you and at the same time those inadequacies aren't highlighted constructively. The comments are typically vague dismissals of the technology outright with unhelpful remarks like "this doesn't work for me (and probably not you) because of xyz boundary condition."

I would much rather these people not say anything but ideally I would like to hear the feedback be more positive or suggestive in nature like "I drive a 500mi route semi-regularly and I just can't do it in an EV, I'd love if xyz existed so I could go all in on EVs."

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#247

Post by btgeekboy »

zeroping wrote: post #109
avs733 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We talked for a while about using the onboard GPS to help the hybrid system optimize decisions about power management if it knew where you were going. We also talked about variable regenerative braking which ended up in the 2nd gen Lawyers and 'the idiot public' we're a lot of it.

I just want to know why the clock can't be set using the GPS.

Ford’s Sync 3 can - but only when you go push the button to sync manually, and it has no idea what Daylight Savings Time is, so you might as well just type in the time yourself.

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#248

Post by zepearl »

tomatocracy wrote: post #187
michaelt wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in my country, two years ago (presumably when avs733 was buying his car) if you wanted an all-electric vehicle with >150 mile range, you had to spend £90,000 on a Tesla Model S. All the other manufacturers' cars (Renault Zoe, BMW i3, Nissan Leaf, VW e-Golf) were 145 mile range or less. It's only recently that EVs like the Hyundai Kona (£30k for 245 miles) and the Jaguar I-Pace (£61k for 235 miles) have come…

And even then the model S's range isn't enough. I do a 500 mile weekend roundtrip about once every couple of months and there's no way it would work for that as there's no place to charge overnight at the destination (250 miles away from home, which I do non-stop on a single tank of fuel). There are basically no fast chargers in the UK which you could guarantee being able to use on the route either, even if I didn't…

I am waiting for the Volvo V60 (the variant with the smaller gas engine) and the new V40 (hoping that the V40 will be less expensive than the V40), both hybrid (battery range ~50km).

The on-demand 4wd of the V60 (the electric motor drives the back wheels) would be a nice additional feature (not sure if it will be available for the V40).

V60: https://d2t6ms4cjod3h9.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/201...

V40 (prototype "40.2"): https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/galleries/x701/...

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#249

Post by jdietrich »

logifail wrote: post #199
jdietrich wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See page 42 of the source report. UBS and Munro predict a 33% reduction in battery costs due to broader industry pricing trends, with a further reduction of 10-25% on powertrain components due to economies of scale and technology improvements. The report argues that the Bolt is already profitable on a contribution basis (sale price - cost of goods sold), meaning that GM make money on every Bolt they sell. What makes…

> high fuel costs mean that pure EVs already have a lower TCO than ICE vehicle Got a source for this claim? I bought a new ICE vehicle six months ago, in round figures it cost me $13,800 (that's the on the road price of the base model, including a couple of minor extras and all applicable taxes). The electric version of that exact same vehicle has a list price of $31,300. No, that isn't a typo. The salesman seemed fa…

Page 44 of the linked report. There's a full analysis at the link below. There are a huge number of variables (purchase cost, annual mileage, predicted depreciation, fuel and electricity pricing trends etc), but EVs match or exceed the TCO of comparable new ICE cars in a substantial number of scenarios in Europe.

The key factor is fuel costs in Europe - even with oil at around $60 a barrel at the moment, you'll pay $6 to $8 a gallon because of high fuel taxes. Off-peak electricity costs as little as 8¢/kWh on some tariffs, with most EVs doing three to four miles per kWh. Incentives like purchase grants, subsidised charging equipment and reduced registration fees further tip the balance in favour of EVs. Lower maintenance costs are a factor, as is the possibility of lower-than-predicted depreciation due to higher-than-predicted durability of EV battery packs.

We're still some years away from TCO parity in the US, because motor fuel is still incredibly cheap and electricity is often relatively expensive.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030626191...

Re: Chevy Volt discontinued: Chevrolet's last Volt rolls off the assembly line

#250

Post by anovikov »

timbit42 wrote: post #238
anovikov wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But expensive and can't be made cheap because it combines complexity and cost of ICE and EV. Was always meant to be just a temporary solution to kickstart li-ion battery mass production to drive down costs.

Yes, but the 'temporary' phase hasn't ended yet.

It did. Cost of ICE is adding ca. $7000 to a car's price tag. It buys 35-55 kwh of battery capacity in addition to 10-15 a plug-in hybrid requires. Getting to healthy 45-70 kwh which is typical for a full-on electric car. GM has Chevy Bolt which is a living proof to that.
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