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Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

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Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#31

Post by paulcole »

mattmanser wrote: post #19
tgb wrote: post #8

I think he's wrong about people not having loyalty to meat. There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. Think of the practically cult-like following bacon has. I recall a thread some years ago on Reddit's r/fitness with someone asking for vegan protein sources due to certain allergies or other health restrictions and it was spammed with dozens of comments along the lines of "bacon" an…

I think you're very wrong and pg is spot on. I remember when Vegan/Vegetarians were sneered at in the UK 25 years ago, but they aren't now. In the space of 25 years it's gone from being rare to see veggie options, to it being the norm to have at least 25% non-meat options on the menu. Attitudes change, and once it's gone, most people will eventually find the idea of rearing animals to kill repellant. If you can deliv…

I think you’re very wrong.

Vegans/Vegetarians are still sneered at in the US. Any non major city/college town in the South/Midwest is still dominated by meat and the associated culture.

Thanksgiving alone is a nearly insurmountable hurdle. “Tofurky” is still a gross joke to most people.

You and PG are both vastly underestimating the emotional attachment people have to their current way of life.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#32

Post by lackbeard »

tgb wrote: post #8

I think he's wrong about people not having loyalty to meat. There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. Think of the practically cult-like following bacon has. I recall a thread some years ago on Reddit's r/fitness with someone asking for vegan protein sources due to certain allergies or other health restrictions and it was spammed with dozens of comments along the lines of "bacon" an…

I'm pretty sure the "hatred" towards vegans and vegetarians isn't actually hatred, but defensiveness. I think most meat-eaters wouldn't care about veganism and vegetarianism at all if there weren't so many vegans and vegetarians trying to moralize to the rest of world how they ought to be eating.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#33

Post by gotocake »

paulcole wrote: post #31
mattmanser wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're very wrong and pg is spot on. I remember when Vegan/Vegetarians were sneered at in the UK 25 years ago, but they aren't now. In the space of 25 years it's gone from being rare to see veggie options, to it being the norm to have at least 25% non-meat options on the menu. Attitudes change, and once it's gone, most people will eventually find the idea of rearing animals to kill repellant. If you can deliv…

I think you’re very wrong. Vegans/Vegetarians are still sneered at in the US. Any non major city/college town in the South/Midwest is still dominated by meat and the associated culture. Thanksgiving alone is a nearly insurmountable hurdle. “Tofurky” is still a gross joke to most people. You and PG are both vastly underestimating the emotional attachment people have to their current way of life.

To me it just seems like the clearest indication of a bubble in Silicon Valley in particular, and the Bay Area in general. Even putting aside emotional attachment, people actually enjoy the taste of meat and don’t see a pressing reason to stop. Aside from some YouTube hype, I’ve never met anyone offline who thinks the various meat subsitutes are remotely like the real thing.

Then again I remember when Soylent was “the big thing that everyone was going to get into” in tech circles. I tried to explain that it just didn’t appeal to 99% of people, and revolted many of them. Fortunately reality does seem to seep through eventually. When it comes down to it, “save the earth” arguments aimed at something other than energy generation, shipping, industry, and transportation are too easy to shoot down.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#34

Post by avdempsey »

siedes wrote: post #26

I find that these meat substitutes, vegetarian, and vegan options do not do very well because often times they are not only inferior in taste, but they cost way more. I do not see many people changing their mindsets until they can make these things significantly cheaper than eating meat products. As it is currently, vegetarianism and veganism are pretty much only available to middle class and higher people who can af…

I think you’re right that they need to be more affordable, and I think they will be as the market grows.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#35

Post by redisman »

hprotagonist wrote: post #4
subpixel wrote: post #3

He’s talking about meat stand-ins, things designed to mimic meat in every way. Definitely a market for that. But fantastic meat substitutes already exist. I’m not vegetarian but never order meat with Indian or Chinese or Thai food and am thrilled with so-called mock duck, chicken and even fish. And when that’s not available, tofu does the job. At home, bolognese, tacos or chili with fake ground beef are awesome and I…

Seitan is nice! A lot of americans who are in the demographic to be into substitute meat won't touch it because it is literally a blob of gluten with sauce.

Seitan and tempeh are by far the tastiest "substitute meats" because they don't really try to morph into a "nugget" or a "burger" but just show what that plant protein is like at its best

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#36

Post by dkarl »

tgb wrote: post #8

I think he's wrong about people not having loyalty to meat. There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. Think of the practically cult-like following bacon has. I recall a thread some years ago on Reddit's r/fitness with someone asking for vegan protein sources due to certain allergies or other health restrictions and it was spammed with dozens of comments along the lines of "bacon" an…

You're right, but meat will go up in price, and I think rich people aren't as stubborn when comes to sticking with class symbols that become unfashionable and stigmatized. I think high-quality meat will be like cigars, a former status symbol that a few eccentric people stick with for personal reasons but whose connection to opulence is stuck in the past.

With fashion turning against it and most people sticking to mass-produced food for economic resaons, there will be a huge decline over the next generation or two. People in rural areas will be able to raise their own animals, but it will be forced underground as a moral outrage like cockfighting is today.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#37

Post by redisman »

JasonFruit wrote: post #27

Maybe it's my rural background and associations, but I see a powerful psychological effect to eating meat from a real animal, and that won't disappear because some meat substitute tastes pretty good. I like falafel, I like shiitake mushrooms, I like a good veggie burger, but there's no substitute for the flesh of an animal — especially one I raised, where I know its diet, its experiences, and how it was slaughtered a…

That's where I see meat going in the next few decades. Most meat eating right now is mindless and low quality and convenient. Definitely not some farm-to-table experience.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#38

Post by redisman »

iambateman wrote: post #24

Living in SC, we live on the edge of the urban-rural divide. I anticipate the urban transition to meatless happening pretty quickly but I could see substantial opposition from rural people for a couple reasons: (1) they’re closer to the people actually farming cattle. (2) a general distrust of science (3) the price drop to the traditional meat market as tremendous new supply floods the market.

You think meat prices can drop? I thought Tyson etc. have already destroyed the margins at the price of horrible conditions for the animals. Where can you go lower from there?

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#39

Post by yazboo »

lackbeard wrote: post #32
tgb wrote: post #8

I think he's wrong about people not having loyalty to meat. There is a ton of literal hatred for veganism and vegetarians in this world. Think of the practically cult-like following bacon has. I recall a thread some years ago on Reddit's r/fitness with someone asking for vegan protein sources due to certain allergies or other health restrictions and it was spammed with dozens of comments along the lines of "bacon" an…

I'm pretty sure the "hatred" towards vegans and vegetarians isn't actually hatred, but defensiveness. I think most meat-eaters wouldn't care about veganism and vegetarianism at all if there weren't so many vegans and vegetarians trying to moralize to the rest of world how they ought to be eating.

As a vegetarian who makes a point of being low key about it, not bringing it up unless asked, etc, there is almost endless judgment and questioning put forth in my direction. Every time I go out for a work lunch and order the black bean burger, or meatless sides at a BBQ joint or whatever, people want to dust off their freshman philosophy class ethical arguments.

People with non-normative beliefs stand out from the normative culture just by virtue of existing. If we must defend ourselves constantly it sounds louder. I understand that can be annoying to people like you.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#40

Post by chrisco255 »

paulcole wrote: post #31
mattmanser wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're very wrong and pg is spot on. I remember when Vegan/Vegetarians were sneered at in the UK 25 years ago, but they aren't now. In the space of 25 years it's gone from being rare to see veggie options, to it being the norm to have at least 25% non-meat options on the menu. Attitudes change, and once it's gone, most people will eventually find the idea of rearing animals to kill repellant. If you can deliv…

I think you’re very wrong. Vegans/Vegetarians are still sneered at in the US. Any non major city/college town in the South/Midwest is still dominated by meat and the associated culture. Thanksgiving alone is a nearly insurmountable hurdle. “Tofurky” is still a gross joke to most people. You and PG are both vastly underestimating the emotional attachment people have to their current way of life.

Food is one of the deepest and most defining parts of a culture.

Not only that but I grew up in a rural area and have killed my own meat. I don't have any qualms about it. The issues people have with it are purely a side effect of chic urban programming.

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