What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers • Hacker News Board

Re: What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers

#21

Post by minikites » Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

DiffEq wrote: post #17

minikites wrote: post #12

The USA is the only country where mass shootings happen regularly, I wonder what every other country in the world does differently? https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/mass-shoo...

Well in many other countries the mass shootings are done by the government, make these shootings pale in comparison and don't get reported in these kinds of anti-gun articles. Also...this list is nothing compared to the bombings worldwide that kill boatloads of people. It also only attempts to show one side of the coin; the other side being how many people in the world are saved by the responsible use of guns.

>the other side being how many people in the world are saved by the responsible use of guns

This is thoroughly refuted by the evidence:

https://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/18000520/gun-risk-death

>Guns can kill you in three ways: homicide, suicide, and by accident. Owning a gun or having one readily accessible makes all three more likely. One meta-analysis ”found strong evidence for increased odds of suicide among persons with access to firearms compared with those without access and moderate evidence for an attenuated increased odds of homicide victimization when persons with and without access to firearms were compared.” The latter finding is stronger for women, a reminder that guns are also a risk factor for domestic violence.

https://www.kqed.org/science/1916209/does-gun-ownership-real...

>There's been research showing that if you keep a gun in your home, that doesn't actually reduce your risk of gun violence. It actually makes you more likely to be a victim of crime or homicide or suicide.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/3/23/17155596/g...

>Individually, several studies have found that the presence of a gun in a home elevates the risk of death. A 2014 review of the research published in the Annals of Internal Medicine, for instance, found that access to firearms was associated with a doubled risk for homicide and a tripled risk for suicide. A 2017 piece by Melinda Wenner Moyer in Scientific American also ran through the evidence, concluding that gun ownership was associated with a higher risk of homicide, suicide, and accidental shootings.

>People often think that guns will potentially protect them from a home invader. But these kinds of events are relatively rare (and even then, the presence of a firearm can make it more likely that such a situation will escalate into deadly violence) — while the chances that a gun could be used to fatal ends in a domestic dispute, suicide, or accidental shooting are much higher, as the research on individual risk demonstrates.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-...

>But about 30 careful studies show more guns are linked to more crimes: murders, rapes, and others. Far less research shows that guns help.

Re: What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers

#22

Post by dmschulman » Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 6:08 PM UTC

"In late fall, an anonymous threat of school violence is shared on social media. It is improbable, but all threats must be handled as emergencies. The staff reacts with practiced precision, preparing students to evacuate. I begin alerting parents and working with the police."

...

"Jason lays out the story, how he learned belatedly that some students in his class had planned to leave early that day for a party in the woods. Jason, who had thought they were his friends, had not been told. When Jason realized he had been left out, he gave in to anger and posted a threat, hoping to ruin the other students’ fun. It was irrational, as most teenage decisions are.

In minutes, our conversation is over, and I watch as he is handcuffed and stuffed into the back of a cruiser. The deputies try to hold back community members on the opposite sidewalk. Other policemen are already at the courthouse to obtain a warrant to search his family’s property. The married campers, I think as the cars pull away."

Re: What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers

#23

Post by Casseres » Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #19

"But now it was no longer a theoretical question of protecting kids at any cost. The faceless target at the shooting range, so absurd in its proportions, had a face: Jason, whom I wanted so badly to help." Yeah, I don't know. I feel that we shouldn't be training civilians in the psychological dehumanization necessary to kill someone. Especially students they know. We know this kind of mindset is damaging to the psych…

> has there ever been a case where a teacher successfully shot a school shooter before any innocents could be harmed?

I don't think there ever will be. I would probably not shoot a kid that I only suspect would shoot someone. I doubt a teacher would either.

(Also, is the kid a "school shooter" if he/she did not harm anyone?)

There has been a case where a principal got a gun from his car and stopped a school shooter though.

Re: What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers

#24

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

mijowi wrote: post #15

minikites wrote: post #12

The USA is the only country where mass shootings happen regularly, I wonder what every other country in the world does differently? https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/mass-shoo...

Uh, no it’s not. You think they happen less often in Russia? Syria? Venezuela?

They happen less in countries with similar political and economical environment like Europe.

Re: What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers

#25

Post by EngineerBetter » Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 6:10 PM UTC

DiffEq wrote: post #17

minikites wrote: post #12

The USA is the only country where mass shootings happen regularly, I wonder what every other country in the world does differently? https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/mass-shoo...

Well in many other countries the mass shootings are done by the government, make these shootings pale in comparison and don't get reported in these kinds of anti-gun articles. Also...this list is nothing compared to the bombings worldwide that kill boatloads of people. It also only attempts to show one side of the coin; the other side being how many people in the world are saved by the responsible use of guns.

Kids in schools should not need to be saved by the responsible use of guns.

Re: What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers

#26

Post by minikites » Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

Casseres wrote: post #23

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #19

"But now it was no longer a theoretical question of protecting kids at any cost. The faceless target at the shooting range, so absurd in its proportions, had a face: Jason, whom I wanted so badly to help." Yeah, I don't know. I feel that we shouldn't be training civilians in the psychological dehumanization necessary to kill someone. Especially students they know. We know this kind of mindset is damaging to the psych…

> has there ever been a case where a teacher successfully shot a school shooter before any innocents could be harmed? I don't think there ever will be. I would probably not shoot a kid that I only suspect would shoot someone. I doubt a teacher would either. (Also, is the kid a "school shooter" if he/she did not harm anyone?) There has been a case where a principal got a gun from his car and stopped a school shooter t…

>I don't think there ever will be. I would probably not shoot a kid that I only suspect would shoot someone. I doubt a teacher would either.

There have been interviews with bystanders who had firearms on their person during a mass shooting and they didn't use their firearm because they didn't want the police to think they were on the side of the attacker(s). The idea that life is like a video game where there are unambiguous and easily identified "good guys" and "bad guys" in a chaotic situation is very juvenile.

Re: What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers

#27

Post by smileysteve » Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

mijowi wrote: post #15

minikites wrote: post #12

The USA is the only country where mass shootings happen regularly, I wonder what every other country in the world does differently? https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2017/world/mass-shoo...

Uh, no it’s not. You think they happen less often in Russia? Syria? Venezuela?

> You think they happen less often in Russia? Syria? Venezuela?

"Mass Shootings", yes. "Shoot outs", no.

Venezuela, most shooting homicides are to cover up a crime, such as petty theft. These are inherently not "mass".

Syria is in active civil war, these are not "mass shootings" as much as battles. They're also more shootings to achieve a political end (not to create terror towards a political end) or for the personal vendettas of the shooter.

Re: What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers

#28

Post by maxxxxx » Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 6:19 PM UTC

Unless they train frequently I can't imagine this working well. When I was at military we did shooting exercises at targets. This was easy but as soon as there was an exercise where the situation is messy or you are under pressure things fall apart quickly. There were situations where our group would have killed each other instead of the attackers. You need a lot of training to do that right.

I don't know how things develop at a school shooting but I wouldn't be too surprised if people ended up shooting each other or the wrong people. I hope the organizers have thought this really through.

Re: What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers

#29

Post by Casseres » Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 6:21 PM UTC

minikites wrote: post #26

Casseres wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> has there ever been a case where a teacher successfully shot a school shooter before any innocents could be harmed? I don't think there ever will be. I would probably not shoot a kid that I only suspect would shoot someone. I doubt a teacher would either. (Also, is the kid a "school shooter" if he/she did not harm anyone?) There has been a case where a principal got a gun from his car and stopped a school shooter t…

>I don't think there ever will be. I would probably not shoot a kid that I only suspect would shoot someone. I doubt a teacher would either. There have been interviews with bystanders who had firearms on their person during a mass shooting and they didn't use their firearm because they didn't want the police to think they were on the side of the attacker(s). The idea that life is like a video game where there are una…

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

I think I agree with you: It is difficult to identify between good and bad guys. A kid with a gun might be a good person making a terrible mistake which is why I wouldn't want to shoot him/her, especially if that person hasn't harmed anyone.

Re: What Happens at a Firearms Training for Teachers

#30

Post by minikites » Fri, Feb 22, 2019, 6:23 PM UTC

Casseres wrote: post #29

minikites wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't think there ever will be. I would probably not shoot a kid that I only suspect would shoot someone. I doubt a teacher would either. There have been interviews with bystanders who had firearms on their person during a mass shooting and they didn't use their firearm because they didn't want the police to think they were on the side of the attacker(s). The idea that life is like a video game where there are una…

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I think I agree with you: It is difficult to identify between good and bad guys. A kid with a gun might be a good person making a terrible mistake which is why I wouldn't want to shoot him/her, especially if that person hasn't harmed anyone.

Right, I was agreeing with you and adding additional information.