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I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

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Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#31

Post by mikekchar »

mirceal wrote: post #14
mruts wrote: post #3

I found the article a little disorganized and the author seems to be having trouble expounding a clear thesis. I just read it for the second time, and I still don’t have a good grasp of what he experienced or what connections he’s trying to make to Buddhism. Maybe that’s understandable given what happened to him (though I’m not really sure of, besides him going “crazy”), but I still think that as a journalist he shou…

the message is that meditation has a dark side and some previous imbalances may land you in deep trouble. people don’t really acknowledge this and put an = between meditation and calm/transcendence. same thing as with certain types of substances. you may have a really good or a really bad experience. at least with meditation there is some work (a lot actually) involved and along the way you get a chance to process so…

I'll be honest. I was left feeling that the author has mental health problems and that this experience happened to trigger it. I'm coloured by past experiences as I've had a very good friend suffer from psychotic episodes that sounds very, very similar to what the author suffered. I think the idea that it was drugs, insomnia, or meditation that caused the problem is a rationalisation - one that my friend made as well (minus the drugs).

I witnessed one of my friend's psychotic episodes and it was probably the most terrifying thing I've ever seen in my life. They went from being the completely normal and wonderful friend that I'd known for years to (over the period of about 8 hours) slowly feeling like they could see and understand more and more about the universe. Finally they felt that they were a god and had a duty to overthrow a consipiracy against the world that only they could see. I luckily managed to persuade them to go to a hospital and after restraints and drugs they were perfectly normal again the next day.

Even as I say that the meditiation experience may have "triggered" the episode in the author, I don't understand enough about the condition to even say that this is probable or even likely. One of the things I learned about my friend's condition is that this feeling of knowing more than others, or "seeing the world as it really is" tends to bubble up leading to the very rationalisations that are used to deny the illness. My friend is very, very bright (and this seems likely to be the case for the author as well). Creating a running dialog of plausible explanations is easy for them.

I guess what I'm saying is that meditation may or may not have a dark side, but I'm relatively sure that the author's experience is not related directly to the meditation. It was an existing medical condition.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#32

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #5
mruts wrote: post #3

I found the article a little disorganized and the author seems to be having trouble expounding a clear thesis. I just read it for the second time, and I still don’t have a good grasp of what he experienced or what connections he’s trying to make to Buddhism. Maybe that’s understandable given what happened to him (though I’m not really sure of, besides him going “crazy”), but I still think that as a journalist he shou…

I took it as the author simply relating their experience and including some informed opinions on it. What was news to me was that this can happen just with meditation! I didn’t know that.

A retreat is more than just meditation.

As others have point out in the discussion here, a retreat typically includes at least some of the follow:

1. Sudden and drastic change in sleep / wake schedule than you might be used to

2. Sudden and drastic change in diet

3. Sudden and drastic change in level of autonomy vs collectivism

4. Sudden and dramatic deference to authority / leadership

5. A lack of, or complete absence of, trained mental healthcare professional

6. Potentially bad actors, presence of people with malicious intent. This may be subtle, and the agent may not be aware of what they're doing.

7. You may not even be aware there is an ongoing investigation to past wrong-doings[1]. I personally know people who attended ashrams connected with [1] who were not aware of the active Royal Commission investigation. Of course the Ashram didn't advertise the fact, so if you didn't happen to see it in the news you may not have been aware.

Call me paranoid, but I'm highly suspicious of anything and anyone connected to (quasi-)religious organisations.

1. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-14/children-lived-in-fea...

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#33

Post by TravelAndFood »

maxander wrote: post #12

Meditation retreats sound interesting, but they've always struck me as tending to have a fairly grueling, bizarre schedule- awake and breakfast at ~6AM, dinner at 4pm, lights out at 9PM (and no meal until breakfast the next day.) It strikes me as the worst setup for long meditation sessions- getting everyone sleepy and hungry and out of sorts. That it would send susceptible people off the deep end doesn't sound surpr…

The one I did was breakfast 7 AM, lunch either 11 AM or 12 PM (I forget), and no food after that. I didn't find it an issue since I ate a big lunch then used little energy and went to bed early.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#34

Post by namlem »

gotocake wrote: post #22
maxander wrote: post #12

Meditation retreats sound interesting, but they've always struck me as tending to have a fairly grueling, bizarre schedule- awake and breakfast at ~6AM, dinner at 4pm, lights out at 9PM (and no meal until breakfast the next day.) It strikes me as the worst setup for long meditation sessions- getting everyone sleepy and hungry and out of sorts. That it would send susceptible people off the deep end doesn't sound surpr…

Lack of sleep, sudden change of routine, total immersion in a new mindset, and withholding food is the classic playbook of cult indoctrination. The point is to weaken existing barriers that would otherwise keep people aloof, disengaged, and instead create a total experience. I’m not claiming that a meditation retreat is a cult indoctrination, at least not most of the time. It does however share some commonalities wit…

There's never been any sleep or food deprivation at any retreat I've been to. They keep an early schedule because that's what they used to. The routine that parent described is basically normal for your typical early bird.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#35

Post by TravelAndFood »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #28
skullgrid wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a week-long silent meditation retreat in Thailand a few years ago. I thought it would be difficult for the same reasons you mention -- I tend towards night-owling and loathe the thought of not eating for more than a few hours. It turned out to be much much easier than I expected. Without electronics and other sources of artificial light the circadian rhythm shifts to the sunrise-sunset cycle pretty rapidly. I s…

Three meals a day including breakfast is basically lobbyist propaganda to support the cereal, milk, and egg industries. I'm never hungry in the morning and breakfast is unnecessary for me.

How many meals do you eat a day and how many calories total? I eat 4 "meals", including right after I wake up. But they are usually 500-600 calories each.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#36

Post by SilasX »

mruts wrote: post #3

I found the article a little disorganized and the author seems to be having trouble expounding a clear thesis. I just read it for the second time, and I still don’t have a good grasp of what he experienced or what connections he’s trying to make to Buddhism. Maybe that’s understandable given what happened to him (though I’m not really sure of, besides him going “crazy”), but I still think that as a journalist he shou…

>I found the article a little disorganized and the author seems to be having trouble expounding a clear thesis.

So, like regular long-form journalism then, at least in the style of the New Yorker.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#37

Post by mirceal »

mikekchar wrote: post #31
mirceal wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the message is that meditation has a dark side and some previous imbalances may land you in deep trouble. people don’t really acknowledge this and put an = between meditation and calm/transcendence. same thing as with certain types of substances. you may have a really good or a really bad experience. at least with meditation there is some work (a lot actually) involved and along the way you get a chance to process so…

I'll be honest. I was left feeling that the author has mental health problems and that this experience happened to trigger it. I'm coloured by past experiences as I've had a very good friend suffer from psychotic episodes that sounds very, very similar to what the author suffered. I think the idea that it was drugs, insomnia, or meditation that caused the problem is a rationalisation - one that my friend made as well…

yes, your current experience is heavily influenced by your past experiences.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#38

Post by nanolith »

It is not unheard of for these problems to occur with this sort of long meditation retreat, but it is rare. The beginner's mind is not used to spending so much time in this state, and it can lead to hallucinations or extreme discomfort. That's why most sanghas and retreats require people to build up to these longer retreats.

Those who have mental disorders, whether under treatment or not, should go slowly with meditation and should keep a journal and keep in contact with a counselor. There are psychologists just about everywhere who have mindfulness and even Buddhist training, and who can help to guide people through this safely. There are enough benefits to meditation that it is worth working with a counselor to ensure that it is done safely. Those with certain forms of psychosis should probably avoid meditation, as it can alter brain patterns in a way that sidesteps the coping mechanisms one has been taught.

Long retreats are unnecessary for reaping the benefits of meditation or mindfulness. Think of these long retreats like marathons. They are incredible experiences for those willing to put in the hard work to train for them, but most people get all of the health benefits they need from 30 minutes worth of exercise. I have not yet gotten to the point of doing a long retreat in my own practice, but I am working up to it. Fifteen minutes a day and a little dedication will do it. Never bite off more than you can chew.

Also, note that if you are having a traumatic experience or suicidal ideation -- no matter the cause or when it occurs -- stop what you are doing and please immediately seek help. Meditation can turn up things that are difficult for some people to cope with. There is nothing wrong with getting a little help to deal with these things.

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#39

Post by [deleted] »

nanolith wrote: post #38

It is not unheard of for these problems to occur with this sort of long meditation retreat, but it is rare. The beginner's mind is not used to spending so much time in this state, and it can lead to hallucinations or extreme discomfort. That's why most sanghas and retreats require people to build up to these longer retreats. Those who have mental disorders, whether under treatment or not, should go slowly with medita…

[deleted]

Re: I Left a Buddhist Retreat in Handcuffs

#40

Post by geomark »

namlem wrote: post #34
gotocake wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of sleep, sudden change of routine, total immersion in a new mindset, and withholding food is the classic playbook of cult indoctrination. The point is to weaken existing barriers that would otherwise keep people aloof, disengaged, and instead create a total experience. I’m not claiming that a meditation retreat is a cult indoctrination, at least not most of the time. It does however share some commonalities wit…

There's never been any sleep or food deprivation at any retreat I've been to. They keep an early schedule because that's what they used to. The routine that parent described is basically normal for your typical early bird.

It's basically the standard monk's schedule. Might be a shock for late sleepers used to eating and snacking throughout the day. Enough of a shock to set off some people. The Thais have an idiom for it which translates to "allergic to the robe". It happens to new monks sometimes. I saw it happen to one new monk in the group I ordained with. A few days after ordination I saw him running and yelling that the senior monks were trying to kill his family.
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