America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable • Hacker News Board

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#381

Post by clairity » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:29 PM UTC

abrahamepton wrote: post #363

alexhutcheson wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Lifestyle inflation" doesn't necessarily just mean nice vacations and fancy cars - education expenses for children are often a huge part of it. In the major coastal metros, living in a great school district or paying for an equivalent-quality private school is a tremendous expense. Parents also feel pressure to save enough to send their children to the best college or university that they can get into, which can be…

Granted I don't have kids - but that parents act like this seems utterly delusional to me. Frankly, I think you're getting a below-average education if you're spending tens of thousands a year on it (before college). Private school, getting a seat at a public school in an expensive suburb - fuuuuuuuuck that. Those experiences are nowhere close to worth all that money, and honestly prevent the students involved from l…

yes, the marginal utility of the "better" education is not generally worth the tens of thousands of extra dollars, whether it be novel instructional methods, extra time/attention, better credentials, or nicer, more advanced facilities.

but like most such situations, i suspect wealthy families are not simply buying better instruction, but rather exclusivity and esteem. the treadmill they're on is an attempt to maintain and improve their (apparent) social status.

money doesn't buy you a ticket off the treadmill. even the richest people jockey with each other for status. jumping off the treadmill means social isolation and most folks can't stand that.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#382

Post by subjectHarold » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:30 PM UTC

QualityReboot wrote: post #373

_fq4v wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ding ding ding. In my brief foray in management consulting at a big three firm, both the company (helped by the credit card companies) sought to create a culture of excess. My colleagues were way overleveraged -- vacations weekly in Cancun, etc. This created dependence on the company, and ultimately intelligent workers who had no choice. By the time they made actual money (5-6 years), their expenses would way exceed…

I have pretty much no exposure to that world, and about half the comments here seem to agree with you, but I still don't understand. I can appreciate that you might need a wardrobe with nice suits, a respectable looking car, and a few stories about places you've been and things you've done. It doesn't seem like it would super hard to craft that image without spending a lot of money. How'd you get into the management…

I have quite a few friends who ended up doing this. It isn't easy at all. And if you are just in it for the money, you probably wouldn't get an entry-level position.

That probably sounds slightly crazy but how many people actually do end up leaving and doing something else? Not many. They end up in those jobs because they want the lifestyle, the status, and being "the guy" is critical to their self-image. Faking it would be pointless (it would probably lead to severe unhappiness).

And if you are an employer, your job is to feed into that. I don't think it happens consciously but most of these places have working environments where the stick and carrot are used quite heavily. If you "win", the rewards in status are huge. If you "lose", you will be crucified. And most people who do exit, exit because they lose. Not because they win and decide they have had enough...no-one does that.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#383

Post by alexhutcheson » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #246

vasilipupkin wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a problem easily solvable by a move to NJ, which of course, would dramatically increase your misery level. In fact, that's probably why that guy is miserable - he doesn't live in Manhattan and has a 2 hr or more commute every day.

There are plenty of wealthy people living a comfortable lifestyle in rich communities off the Palisades pkwy. with a 20 minute hop into the city. 15 if you drive at entitled speeds.

> with a 20 minute hop into the city.

Maybe early on a Sunday morning? Or maybe if you're stopping the clock as soon as you get to the other side of the GWB?

On a weekday morning, you'd be lucky if you can get from Secaucus to the Manhattan side of the Lincoln Tunnel in 30 min.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#384

Post by abrahamepton » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

clairity wrote: post #381

abrahamepton wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Granted I don't have kids - but that parents act like this seems utterly delusional to me. Frankly, I think you're getting a below-average education if you're spending tens of thousands a year on it (before college). Private school, getting a seat at a public school in an expensive suburb - fuuuuuuuuck that. Those experiences are nowhere close to worth all that money, and honestly prevent the students involved from l…

yes, the marginal utility of the "better" education is not generally worth the tens of thousands of extra dollars, whether it be novel instructional methods, extra time/attention, better credentials, or nicer, more advanced facilities. but like most such situations, i suspect wealthy families are not simply buying better instruction, but rather exclusivity and esteem. the treadmill they're on is an attempt to maintai…

It's not just that it's not worth it, but that growing up in the rich-private-school/elite-suburban-school bubble is actively detrimental to people down the road. It's making the kids less happy and less able to be a part of the real world.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#385

Post by abrahamepton » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:33 PM UTC

throwaway-1283 wrote: post #375

abrahamepton wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have a family, a $1.5m house (which barely gets you a shabby 3-bedroom in a high cost city) Uh... median house price in Seattle is less than half that. $1.5 million for a house in Seattle will get you an extremely nice house. Extremely nice. If you disagree, it's because you have incredibly high standards for what constitutes "nice". That's fine, but it makes it more than a bit silly to complain that you "ca…

I didn't mention Seattle...I'm referring to NYC or SF.

So literally 2 cities. Wildly expensive cities like DC, Seattle, Boston are still highly livable on $1.5 million.

Honestly, if you're regretting your life choices so severely but you're unwilling to live anywhere but NYC/SF, you're either not really regretting your life choices that much, or you're just really bad at making good decisions with your life.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#386

Post by radlad » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

mancerayder wrote: post #123

QualityReboot wrote: post #64

I just don't understand this at all. If you can earn a million a year, do it for 3-5 years, never have to work again, and pursue your passions in life. I think the problem for most workers is the lifetime of toil, not the meaninglessness of the work. I'd happily dig ditches for 8-12 hours a day for 3 years if I knew I was completely financially independent with millions in the bank that. Actually, I'd rather do that…

I'm 100% in agreement, and am trying to pursue that on a payscale that's fractions of what's described. I think the problem is the balancing act between "live now" and "save for living later." I think I have a healthy balance, particularly in not denying myself decent food and lifestyle despite the costs. That said, I'm moderate in almost every other way (and I don't have a car, or buy expensive clothing, etc.) At on…

> Maybe this should be called "lifestyle inflation."

It is: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lifestyle-inflation.asp

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#387

Post by TrackerFF » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:35 PM UTC

QualityReboot wrote: post #64

I just don't understand this at all. If you can earn a million a year, do it for 3-5 years, never have to work again, and pursue your passions in life. I think the problem for most workers is the lifetime of toil, not the meaninglessness of the work. I'd happily dig ditches for 8-12 hours a day for 3 years if I knew I was completely financially independent with millions in the bank that. Actually, I'd rather do that…

It's easy to fall prey to the lifestyle creep.

Suddenly your $300k house/apartment is too small, and you aim for one that's 5-10 times more expensive.

Then your cars get more expensive.

You start looking at a summer home.

You get a couple of kids...and they turn out to be extremely expensive: - Daycare - Prep-schools - Private tutors - Prestigious Universities

Because you want to maximize their chances of success, and have planned their academic life for the next 15-20 years.

It all adds up. And since you're surrounded with peers that live the same lifestyle, you get conditioned that this is all normal.

Here's a personal example, and one that I never, EVER, thought I'd fall for:

I bought my first "real" suit after graduation, and paid $1000 for it. I felt like a real baller, but was also anxious about wearing it. What if I got stains on it, what if some douchebag with a cig bumped into me, what if, etc. I could afford it, sure, but it felt like A LOT of money for a piece of clothing.

Years later, and I'm buying suits 5-6-7 times more expensive. The old $1.5k ones don't feel right - the fabric isn't nice enough, the fit isn't as good, the small details are lacking.

Internally, I rationalize and convince myself that all these small differences are truly making the price (premium) worth it. And since I make good money, it doesn't mater.

But, what if I lost my income? Or had to settle with a "normal" job, making $45k a year? There's no way in hell I could afford spending 10% of my income on one thing. But at the same time, downgrading from luxury like that, and all the way down - it's not even like going from 3-ply to 1-ply TP, it's like going from 3-ply to newspaper.

And that's just for something as trivial as a men's suit. When I was a student, I didn't even own a suit - and had absolutely zero interest or care about wearing one. But then you get put in an environment, and ridiculous things start to get normalized.

I know people that swore to the shittiest of shit lite-beers, but now obsessively shop wine bottles worth tens of thousands. It doesn't happen overnight - but is rather a very gradual process.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#388

Post by AnimalMuppet » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

seppin wrote: post #267

thorwasdfasdf wrote: post #186

I don't have much sympathy for someone who earns 1.2 million a year. No matter how bad it is, all you have to do is get your spending down to an absolute minimum and save up for 2 years, then you'll have over 1 million in the bank. Then move out to a nice midwestern town and live happily ever after. I know it's really rough leaving all your friends and family and everything you know, but it's not as rough as being po…

> Then move out to a nice midwestern town and live happily ever after. That would be hell to most living in the 1%

But he's miserable in his current life, too. Maybe the problem is him, not his circumstances?

As long as he keeps wanting what he wants and doing what he's been doing, he's going to keep getting what he's been getting.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#389

Post by zaccus » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

forrestthewoods wrote: post #335

zaccus wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming a 4% return, 2.5MM absolutely does yield 100k per year, forever. Yes inflation will eat away at the value of that 100k over time, but that's less of a problem if you own your home and have something left over each year to reinvest.

> have something left over each year to reinvest. Right. So my question is how much can you withdraw to indefinitely draw the same inflation adjusted value?

I'm talking about a fixed income, like bond dividends, annuities, etc. It doesn't adjust for inflation; that's a separate problem. Just saying that if you can get a 4% return on 2.5MM, which is on the high side of realistic, that's a 100k indefinite fixed income.

Re: America’s Professional Elite: Wealthy, Successful and Miserable

#390

Post by lapnitnelav » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

derp_dee_derp wrote: post #318

nimonian wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> maybe people need some religion in their lives to give direction and meaning I can't just accept dogma because I'm miserable. I can't just say 2+2=5 even if it would make me feel better. Religion isn't something you can just pick up like pilates. If life is inherently without meaning or direction, I'd rather go with that and be true to myself than refract the universe through some doctrine I understand to be false.…

dude religion isn't just dogma. Its also the collected wisdom of untold generations about how to live and not live your life. The stuff religion recommends, on average, works to make people's lives better for those who practice it. our society has completely thrown the baby out with the bathwater when we arbitrarily decided that all organized religions are bad and that God doesn't exist.

We've been killing gods since the dawn of times.

The word religion itself originally was all about worshiping a god.

Now everyone can define "God" how they want and follow whatever the scriptures advise, but let's not fool ourselves here, it's always been about power / control.