Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#121

Post by conesus » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 6:07 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #106

conesus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you do with the remote is between you and what you control. I store anonymous metrics that I use to gauge usage levels but you can turn that off. Sonos undoubtedly takes your listening habits and profits off that data but Turn Touch does not, even though it has access to that data.

> I store anonymous metrics that I use to gauge usage levels How valuable has that data proven to be? Is it worth collecting?

It tells me which features I should invest more time in getting right and handled edge cases and which features nobody but me uses and so it’s not worth the extra effort. I only have so much time!

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#122

Post by conesus » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #116

conesus wrote: post #25

I designed and built a wooden remote control[1] so I know a bit about why this is. My iOS app asks the user for location permissions because without it the remote control app won't know when to attempt to connect when you walk in the door with your iPhone but your remote is sitting at home, waiting for you to hit it to turn on your lights or play music on your Sonos. If you hit the button and nothing happens, that's…

This is an awesome product. Have you ever seen anyone with nightstand or coffee table where they hollowed out a section for the remote to go in. I like the idea of being able to pop it out and take it withe me, but 99% of the time I would want it in the exact same place so I would love if it could lie flush and be a part of nightstand.

I built a complementary product called the pedestal which does exactly this. You can either mount it on the wall (it has magnets to hold it in place) or place it on a nightstand (as I do) where it lives in the same place every time when I reach for it.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#123

Post by tokyodude » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

derriz wrote: post #13

At least they acknowledged it, responded to the feedback and fixed it. Unfortunately I have a Sonos system which became effectively bricked unless I signed a new user agreement allowing the collection of data. There are no physical controls on Sonos so the system becomes useless without accepting. They used to sell dedicated controllers/remotes years ago but these were also bricked as part of an upgrade about a year…

I know I'm in the extreme minority here but I also hate Netflix, Amazon Prime, Hulu, Spotify, Apple Music, and even Youtube tracking what I watch. For youtube I watch lots of things in incognito mode. I like the idea of getting recommendations. I hate the idea of a profile being built on me.

Yes I get this Sonos is arguably worse since they're spying on stuff not from a service. iTunes does this as well though you can opt out. Oculus does it too. No opt out there AFAIK. Steam as well. You can add in PS4/Switch/Xbox too.

Does the law preventing companies sharing your video rental history apply to internet companies and streaming music, videos, and games?

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#124

Post by kllrnohj » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #65

shittyadmin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For good reason! There's many online services where you can put in a wifi MAC and pretty much know within 100M where someone is. Yeah, the message could be made clearer about what's actually being allowed, but in the end I'm glad it's there. Maybe a generic system for when you request a permission being able to provide an explanation string or something. I know some apps made a pop-up before the prompt but I found th…

> There's many online services where you can put in a wifi MAC and pretty much know within 100M where someone is. Somewhat ironically because Google went and made that dataset, then publicized it.

Google is far from the only one to have that dataset. Apple has one, too, for example, as does Skyhook. And Mozilla ( https://location.services.mozilla.com/ ).

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#125

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #109

maxxxxx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there should be much finer detail in permissions.

But we've done research on this. Fine grained permissions don't work, even for people who claim to be knowledgeable. It sounds like a good idea until you look at the papers.

Maybe. At a minimum we should get a log about how apps are using their permissions. I think I am reasonably tech savvy but when I really want an app I pretty much have to agree to all permissions. I don't know how not agreeing will impact app performance.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#126

Post by kllrnohj » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

forrestthewoods wrote: post #83

> Google, in its wisdom, has tied "Location" into things like BLE Scanning and WiFi scanning. The excuse is that you can use these things as a proxy for location. That is, if I know you are near access point X your location is probably near Y. There’s a reason Apple Maps says “enable WiFi to improve location accuracy”. I’m incredibly annoyed that phones don’t report themselves with randomized Mac addresses. WiFi trac…

> I’m incredibly annoyed that phones don’t report themselves with randomized Mac addresses. WiFi tracking is pervasive.

You've got it backwards. The phone isn't being tracked, the phone is the one doing the tracking. The phone is looking at all the wifi APs it can see and then looking those up in a database.

Nobody sees the phone's MAC address. It isn't broadcasting anything at all.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#127

Post by lazyjones » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 6:33 PM UTC

leggomylibro wrote: post #99

lazyjones wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The law could include a ban on firmware updates that subsequently introduce and require sensitive data collection post-purchase. This is IMHO a broader issue with products that receive firmware or OTA updates, it's probably legally a breach of contract already to modify products after sale and change functionality to the disadvantage of the consumer.

Example off the top of my head: you have devices in the field which have not received an update since they were purchased 10 years ago. A common crypto algorithm gets broken to a degree where it is phased out of use industry-wide to prevent leaking user data, MitM attacks, etc. But once you flip the switch on that old crypto algorithm, your old devices can no longer be updated without a complex manual process (good l…

> What do you do?

Offer the old crypto algorithms as a configuration option, or offer 2 versions of the firmware (standard vs. compatibility). Can't be prohibitively expensive, but isn't necessary when it's in the clear interest of customers not to use these old algorithms.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#128

Post by y04nn » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

jfnixon wrote: post #22

codetrotter wrote: post #12

> Google, in its wisdom, has tied "Location" into things like BLE Scanning and WiFi scanning. The excuse is that you can use these things as a proxy for location. That is, if I know you are near access point X your location is probably near Y. It’s not an “excuse”, it’s a fact. If you allow an app to scan SSIDs you are allowing it to know your location. No amount of sarcasm on the part of OP is going to change that.

Um, no, that's not correct. SSIDs aren't tied to geographic location. The mothership might infer location by looking at the list of SSIDs and checking it against a geotagged list compiled by a mapper, but that's a completely different thing that saying if you let an app look for an SSID you are allowing to it to know your location. You might as well say that by giving a camera the ability to know the time, you are al…

It's not SSIDs that are used for location but the BSSID of access points around you. You need only 2 of them to get the location of a user with Mozilla Location Service and there is other providers.

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#129

Post by pdkl95 » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 6:46 PM UTC

derriz wrote: post #13

At least they acknowledged it, responded to the feedback and fixed it. Unfortunately I have a Sonos system which became effectively bricked unless I signed a new user agreement allowing the collection of data. There are no physical controls on Sonos so the system becomes useless without accepting. They used to sell dedicated controllers/remotes years ago but these were also bricked as part of an upgrade about a year…

> by having it run on a disconnected network

This is only a temporary solution to the problem of devices phoning home against your wishes (or knowledge). The "system-on-a-chip" CPUs used in embedded ("smart") devices with an integrated cellular (LTE/etc) modem have existed for years[1]. The hardware that can simply bypass your local network and phone home over the cellular network already exists. The people that want to spy on everyone for profit will no longer ask for internet access through your LAN when someone finally negotiates with the carriers for some sort of low-priority/off-peak access they can use to batch-upload their eavesdropping ("analytics").

[1] random example from "Q4 3014" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exynos#List_of_ARMv8_Exynos_So...

Re: Why Does My Remote Control Need to Know My Location?

#130

Post by tyingq » Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 6:53 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #109

maxxxxx wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there should be much finer detail in permissions.

But we've done research on this. Fine grained permissions don't work, even for people who claim to be knowledgeable. It sounds like a good idea until you look at the papers.

Web browsers let me upload a file without giving me permission as the "app writer" to trawl the filesystem.

In this case, the phone OS could provide a similar interface for an app to pass off selection of an SSID or Bluetooth device to the OS, without giving away other permissions.