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EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

reuters.com

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Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#101

Post by fauigerzigerk »

wbxrs wrote: post #44
josteink wrote: post #8

Let’s be optimistic. This will severely impact social media. It will be censored like never before, and attacking opponents by “reporting” their posts will be more effective than ever. Trolls will have a EU-sanctioned field-day. And what real users are going to bother staying on a platform like that? Maybe this will revitalize hosting of personal websites where there’s no “platform” to censor your free speech?

>Maybe this will revitalize hosting of personal websites where there’s no “platform” to censor your free speech? In Germany, Austria and Switzerland you are required to disclose your full name, address, telephone number and more if you publish a personal website. This makes it impossible to keep a personal and anonymous website. That is why having platforms is important.

I'm pretty sure that using a Facebook page instead of your own web site does not absolve you of any disclosure obligations that you would otherwise have.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#102

Post by fnord123 »

wbxrs wrote: post #74
TeMPOraL wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This and the "insult the president" sound both like cases of the offender being an asshole. I mean, there is a difference between criticizing an idea - or a person - and being purposefully insulting about it. Surely there is a way to draw a line in between that preserves free and civilized discourse.

It is not the job of the government to preserve "civilised discourse". It is a government, not the moderator of an Internet forum. I must be able to say whatever I want, and you must be able to ignore me or openly disagree.

And yet with this primitive outlook we are stuck with fake news horse shit spewing all over the internet. We need a more robust approach to improve discourse.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#103

Post by jillesvangurp »

zanny wrote: post #80
jillesvangurp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All we need now is an independent content id system that companies might use to check content against. Doing nothing will leave this to the wrong parties to implement and turn into a control point. IMHO a simple open platform could allow content creators to register their content. Anyone could then choose to check content id against such a platform. In case of conflicts, that platform would be the place to resolve th…

How about instead of spending billions of man hours and dollars on an antiquated conception like intellectual property when the fundamental assumptions of its premise have changed (primarily, that information was not functionally free to store and transmit instantly to anyone, anywhere) you say "hey, maybe it doesn't make sense to create artificial state run monopolies for an imaginary incentives structure we have no…

Good luck with that debate. In the real world copyright, trademarks, patents, international treaties, etc. and the national laws of hundreds of countries governing those are a reality. This stuff is super complicated. Within the context of all of that, coming up with a pragmatic way forward is the only debate worth having.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#104

Post by fauigerzigerk »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #72
wbxrs wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't frame this as a free speech issue. Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more. Yeah, no. This (blasphemy laws) would be unthinkable in the US: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...

This and the "insult the president" sound both like cases of the offender being an asshole. I mean, there is a difference between criticizing an idea - or a person - and being purposefully insulting about it. Surely there is a way to draw a line in between that preserves free and civilized discourse.

How do you draw the line when it comes to satire for instance? Should you not be allowed to ridicule rulers just because they might find it insulting? Insulting the powerful has always been part of normal democratic discourse.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#105

Post by flexie »

spaced-out wrote: post #85
flexie wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, Europe is many different legal systems, and blasphemy laws are not everywhere. I don't like that limitation to freedom of speech anymore than you, but all countries, including the US have limitations such as libel, slander, pornography, obscenity, etc.

Libel and slander aren't illegal, they're civil matters.

As is copyright law.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#106

Post by oytis »

duxup wrote: post #99
oytis wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many such laws need to be passed before we can say that the context has changed?

Well some of the context I mentioned was a democratic government, free press, independent courts, etc. So that would have to change.

My point is these don't have to be abolished at once with a single law, there can also be a gradual decline.

This law _does_ threaten free speech by basically forcing platforms introduce content filters. First to be used for copyrighted content, but once it's there it can easily be extended to hate speech, fake news, defamation and other euphemisms for the content to be censored. It basically un-does a lot of internet's democratizing effect on free speech.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#107

Post by onli »

craigsmansion wrote: post #73
aikah wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more It is absolutely not. That's a preposterous assumption. If it was the case then no European state could send people to prison or fine them for having an opinion, yet look at France, where insulting the president is a crime and denying "official" history has landed people in jail (I don't condone either of these, it's just about principle)…

It absolutely is, depending on your p.o.v. I know the U.S. is big on their "freedom of speech" since it's one of the few things all citizens agree on, an All American Shibboleth, so to speak, but National Security trumps everything. There are plenty of things you can say at the border that will get you on the next plane back home. There may or may not be people being held in captivity without access to a lawyer for t…

As a rule of law or constitutional principle freedom of speech in the US just is a lot more protected than it is in the EU countries I am familiar with. The limits of freedom of speech are a lot bigger in EU countries than in the US-limits mentioned.

> There are plenty of things you can say at the border that will get you on the next plane back home.

That's a really bad example. If you get send home you are not an US citizen and you might not have the rights US citizens enjoy, which is what they are talking about when freedom of speech is referenced.

> Someone who practiced his freedom of speech is currently in hiding in liberty-loving Russia of all places

Snowden leaked secrets. The USA is very bad in protecting that, right. But it's not a simple question of freedom of speech, it has a a lot more with how authoritarian the government is. It's not surprising that a war mongering USA that tries to achieve complete surveillance, tortures prisoners and and kidnaps citizens of other and allied countries to put them without trial for forever into the hellhole that is Guantanamo might have a limit on what dissident actions it accepts. But that does not mean that the protection of freedom of speech in a general area is stronger than elsewhere.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#108

Post by Y_Y »

geodel wrote: post #30
porpoisely wrote: post #16

This is what I despise about "news". If this was china or russia or venezuela, etc, the headline would be "China tightens grip on their people" or "International community concerned as China becomes more authoritarian" or "Pro freedom activists protest against China's draconian censorship". It would be spun as something more ominous than "reform". But reuters being reuters and also a major supporter of censorship, of…

Heh, a few weeks back I was listening a podcast and it mentioned when US/NATO decide to remove some foreign country's government they start by calling it regime instead of ruler/ruling party etc.

So maybe you should start talking about the future of the Conservative Regime in the UK and the Trumpian Theocracy.

I think I that's how causation works.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#109

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

gmueckl wrote: post #86
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more. The EU is a legal entity. Europe is the continent/area. The EU does not protect freedom of speech more than the U.S.

The EU is not a country and does not have its own laws. Things like this copyright directive will get turned into 28 distict member state level laws. Directives only set the common denominator for these laws. Also, the EHCR is an organization of the Council of Europe which is entirely unrelated to the EU. This is a weaker association of states including Turkey and Russia.

>The EU is not a country and does not have its own laws. Things like this copyright directive will get turned into 28 distict member state level laws. Directives only set the common denominator for these laws.

So the EU could have a directive that guarantees freedom of speech across the board? Seems like your just arguing semantics.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#110

Post by wbl »

porpoisely wrote: post #16

This is what I despise about "news". If this was china or russia or venezuela, etc, the headline would be "China tightens grip on their people" or "International community concerned as China becomes more authoritarian" or "Pro freedom activists protest against China's draconian censorship". It would be spun as something more ominous than "reform". But reuters being reuters and also a major supporter of censorship, of…

Nothing is being censored. You can say whatever you want.
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