Live data from Hacker News

U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

nytimes.com

371–380 of 457 posts

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Additionally, a lot of the constitution is actually phrased as limits on the government rather than rights as citizens. This is because the Constitution is supposed to be an enumeration of what the government is allowed to do. The limitations are there to narrow the scope of those enumerated powers. In this context, enumerating most rights of citizens would have been redundant. The enumerated citizen rights were th…

> Unfortunately, Commerce Clause abuse and the effective neutralization of the 10th Amendment has created the opposite situation where the government can do anything it wants as long as it isn't specifically prohibited, and citizens are only guaranteed rights if they are specified. I mean, that's true, but it's also true that it's extremely difficult to get 50 states to jump forward at the same time, particularly whe…

> it's extremely difficult to get 50 states to jump forward at the same time

The great thing with this system is that it's extremely difficult to get 50 states to jump backwards at the same time.

Some places will always remain sane, even in the darkest hours. That is the greatness of a decentralized system!!

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#372
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are not people, and the Supreme Court has never found that they are -- this soundbite is a misunderstanding of Citizens United v. FEC .

That's just not true. Corporations have been recognized as legal persons in the US for well over a century prior to Citizens United, in both judicial precedent and federal statutes. I agree with what I assume you believe - that this ought not be the case, and corporations should be more restricted in their rights than natural persons. But simply claiming it to be so is willful ignorance.

Corporations are "legal persons" in the sense that the same rules apply to them as to people in some areas where that makes sense.

This is mostly a practical matter, so instead of writing a duplicate set of laws for corporations and people, the legislators have said that "for these laws, just apply laws to corporations as you would to people".

...or that's how I've had it explained to me.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not American here, but would SCotUS even be able to rule on anything outside of their narrow window? My impression was that they only rule on constitutional issues. I guess that's why they vacated the rest. When it gets to that level, is there any oversight to ensure that they don't go beyond the boundaries of their mandate?

The SCotUS has extremely broad leeway in it's decision making. Any court case can rise to the SCotUS, but the SCotUS also has the power to deny hearing any case it wants. The Supreme Court has original jurisdiction (that is, the first court the case must be heard in) in a very narrow set of circumstances defined by the US Constitution (in Article III): "In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and c…

High-effort comment.

I would add some from libertarian or socially-liberal inclinations have criticized SCOTUS as becoming tyrannical in a sense that some socia policy was constitutionally-intended to be "experiments" by the states--something SDOC is championed.

I think a good example of this is the political economy of healthcare, which in my opinion should be handled by the states.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this very remarkable about American legal system. The supreme court could have technically showed some bleeding heart by not showing judicial restraint. Instead they just did their job. Americans must thank this judicial culture.

Not American here, but would SCotUS even be able to rule on anything outside of their narrow window? My impression was that they only rule on constitutional issues. I guess that's why they vacated the rest. When it gets to that level, is there any oversight to ensure that they don't go beyond the boundaries of their mandate?

The SCOTUS rules on all sorts of controversies. Most often they rule on matters of procedure and statutory construction. Sometimes they rule on constitutional matters. Most cases that come to the SCOTUS are not momentous but boring, but occasionally there is a momentous case.

The SCOTUS has, for some time now, been very good at doing the following:

  - waiting until there is a "circuit split"
    (meaning lower courts deciding the issue
    differently) on some kind of controversy
    before hearing appeals
  - then making the narrowest possible ruling
    (emphasis on possible),
  - thus often leaving some issues undecided so
    that lower courts may develop jurisprudence
    on the matter further before the SCOTUS need
    clarify,
  - which then allows the SCOTUS room to maneuver
    if they make bad decisions (the SCOTUS does
    not like to overrule earlier decisions,
    something they call "stare decisis", meaning
    what is decided is decided),
  - and they do this by remanding to lower courts
    to decide things the SCOTUS left undecided.
In this case the SCOTUS did not decide whether the plaintiff should get his property (or equivalent value) back. There's little doubt now that the Indiana courts will decide that the plaintiff must get his property back, and if not, the very first Federal court to hear an appeal will do so, because this follows from today's decision, but the Court did not decide this. Nor did the Court decide whether Indiana could take the balance of the seized property and the fine up to the maximum fine -- this is less clear, but since there is a conviction, sentence, and fine on record, it seems difficult to change the fine ex-post just to minimize the State's liability and/or change the then-defendant's punishment, for that ship has sailed.

As to oversight, yes there is, but it goes un-exercised now for a long time. Federal judges are appointed for life, but they can be left without a court or without a jurisdiction, the various courts' jurisdictions (including the SCOTUS'!) can be narrowed statutorily, court sizes can be changed -- all of this by simple majorities of both houses of Congress and Presidential approval (or veto override). There's also two ways to amend the Constitution to change SCOTUS decisions. But none of these things have been attempted in decades. The last time there was an attempt to use statutory avenues was in the 30s, when FDR tried to pack the SCOTUS, and the Senate killed the project. Before that we'd have to go back to the income tax amendment (the 16th), and before the Reconstruction Amendments (13th, 14th, and 15th).

The most notable case I'm aware of when Congress did away with courts for political reasons, was way back when Thomas Jefferson was President. Congress then closed about half the federal district courts and left as many judges court-less. Congress has changed the size of the SCOTUS, including shrinking it, from time to time, though I think all of that was in the 18th and 19th centuries, and never did they pack the court -- it was always changes of +-1 or +-2.

There's always a risk of court packing. It seems strange that the Constitution allows it by simple majority -- it feels like a bug.

A number of politicians have threatened to pack the court the first chance they get. Given our rather nowadays-frequent wave elections, it could very well happen. The filibuster in the Senate will be no protection for the minority in the Senate the day it comes to packing the court anymore than the filibuster stands for nominations to the court (it no longer does). But it's also not guaranteed to happen. It will be very costly to whichever party does it, and since we've had so many wave elections in recent decades, any court packing scheme simply might not last.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this very remarkable about American legal system. The supreme court could have technically showed some bleeding heart by not showing judicial restraint. Instead they just did their job. Americans must thank this judicial culture.

And why is it a good thing that they didn't rule on the other merits of the case, such as clarifying that a confiscation of a $45000 car is "excessive" for a crime with a maximum fine of $1200?

It's standard operating procedure for the court.

They usually make the narrowest possible decisions, only in cases they felt they had to take (usually because of disagreements below, sometimes due to time considerations), and remand to lower courts to work out details left undecided.

In this case the holding leaves very little room for the lower courts to make any decision other than that the $45k property or equivalent value must be restored to the plaintiff. I suppose Indiana might want to take the $8800 between the $1200 and the max fine ($10k), but that would invite further pointless expense and embarrassment by having their rulings overturned by Federal courts, so I would bet the plaintiff gets the $45k back. I suppose the plaintiff may want interest too, but there's not enough value in that for them, but the State will surely fight that tooth an nail, especially if the courts decide that all (or many) civil asset forfeiture cases are now to open to being revisited, as the States (or their cities) will be on the hook for enormous amounts of money, and interest on that will be a lot too.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#376
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s like claiming any knowledge is a meme. Kinda destroys the meaning if it just means any time someone repeats a fact.

This is the original meaning given by Dawkins in The Selfish Gene. The word ‘meme’ is more than a repeated fact – first, it doesn’t have to be a fact, and second, it suggests that our culture is the result of evolution in an environment where memes are selected for reproductive fitness (‘virality’).

I've read the Selfish Gene and loved it, but I had NO idea that meme originated from that book. I must have skimmed that paragraph. Thank you for this!

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the rest of the court found the the excessive punishment protection of the eighth amendment was applied to the states through the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment as an essential right and therefore a component of “liberty” as used in the due process clause. Thomas disagrees with this fairly conventional incorporation argument and the idea of the protection as a fundamental right, but feels instead that a…

> noncitizens necessarily do not enjoy the privileges and immunities of citizens. Would you have more reading on this? It's something I've wondered about but never really come across a comprehensive answer to. What rights do noncitizens not have that citizens do?

FYI, the term "U.S. persons" == U.S. citizens and permanent residents.

The only rights that permanent residents don't have are: a) the right to vote, b) the right to have their permanent residency not revoked for cause (e.g., committing a serious crime). Permanent residents get to become citizens after some time.

Non-permanent residents have fewer rights, and which rights they don't have is generally a matter of law, not Constitution, except that they have all the rights of Due Process guaranteed by the Constitution (i.e., by far the most important ones for them to have), at least as to criminal prosecutions, and often as to civil suits. A typical example would be the right to keep and bear arms, which non-residents generally do not have in most States. I suppose even First Amendment rights might be curtailed for non-residents, though I suspect at most only freedom of association would be, and only indirectly.

But most of the Bill of Rights (the 4th through the 8th Amendments) deals in Due Process, and these rights are available to all persons in the U.S., except perhaps as to immigrant law itself (e.g., a non-resident alien may have much less recourse to fight deportation than they and anyone else might have to fight a conviction).

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note also that corporations are 'people' but not 'citizens' and would likewise be disenfranchised from the protections provided by the bill of rights and the constitution when it came to state law. edit: there seems to be some lawyering about the difference between the meaning of 'people' and 'persons' that I do not understand at this time.

Corporations are not people, and the Supreme Court has never found that they are -- this soundbite is a misunderstanding of Citizens United v. FEC .

They are people associating freely, however, which is protected under the First Amendment.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#379
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the rest of the court found the the excessive punishment protection of the eighth amendment was applied to the states through the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment as an essential right and therefore a component of “liberty” as used in the due process clause. Thomas disagrees with this fairly conventional incorporation argument and the idea of the protection as a fundamental right, but feels instead that a…

The constitution really clearly delineates between "persons" and "citizens." I hate the notion that none of the protections apply to noncitizens. Additionally, a lot of the constitution is actually phrased as limits on the government rather than rights as citizens.

Due Process mostly applies to persons, not just citizens.

In some cases the possessor of a right is not identified. E.g., the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd amendments do not specify whether they apply to all persons in U.S. jurisdictions or just citizens. These are the ones that are most likely to be unavailable to non-U.S. persons. E.g., non-U.S. persons are generally not permitted to keep and bear arms within the U.S.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not really a 'meme' It is, in fact, a self-replicating unit of behavior. (It's also true in one sense, which is one of the bases of it's relative reproductive fitness as a meme.)

That’s like claiming any knowledge is a meme. Kinda destroys the meaning if it just means any time someone repeats a fact.

Any knowledge capable of self-replication is a meme.
Post reply on HN