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U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

nytimes.com

161–170 of 457 posts

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#161
post #41

> Justice Thomas agreed with the result in the case, Timbs v. Indiana, No. 17-1091, but said he would have gotten to the same place by a different route. While the majority relied on the due process clause of the 14th Amendment, Justice Thomas said he would have ruled “the right to be free from excessive fines is one of the ‘privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States’ protected by the 14th Amendment.”…

Justice Thomas has been fighting a long battle trying to restore the Privileges or Immunities Clause of the 14th amendment after it was effectively removed from the constitution in the Slaughter-House Cases. He'll often issue dissents or concurrences just to raise the issue of the Privileges or Immunities Clause. The Institute For Justice (who argued this case, somewhat coincidentally) has a podcast about the 14th Am…

Background on the Slaughterhouse Cases: https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/supremecourt/antebellum/landma...

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#162
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the rest of the court found the the excessive punishment protection of the eighth amendment was applied to the states through the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment as an essential right and therefore a component of “liberty” as used in the due process clause. Thomas disagrees with this fairly conventional incorporation argument and the idea of the protection as a fundamental right, but feels instead that a…

The constitution really clearly delineates between "persons" and "citizens." I hate the notion that none of the protections apply to noncitizens. Additionally, a lot of the constitution is actually phrased as limits on the government rather than rights as citizens.

> Additionally, a lot of the constitution is actually phrased as limits on the government rather than rights as citizens.

This is because the Constitution is supposed to be an enumeration of what the government is allowed to do. The limitations are there to narrow the scope of those enumerated powers. In this context, enumerating most rights of citizens would have been redundant. The enumerated citizen rights were those that could be affected by the powers the government was granted.

Unfortunately, Commerce Clause abuse and the effective neutralization of the 10th Amendment has created the opposite situation where the government can do anything it wants as long as it isn't specifically prohibited, and citizens are only guaranteed rights if they are specified.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#163

Naming the property as a suit defendent seems like pure legal sophistry. The whole civil forfeiture scheme should run afoul of the the 4th amendment against unreasonable search and seizure. Originally, they had the phrase "life, liberty, and property", if I recall, but "happiness" sounded more poetic or something in the Declaration of Independence. They definitely had protection of property from the government in min…

The only argument I have heard is that it was useful for prosecuting property where no owner will claim it, or the owner is unavailable for prosecution because they are not in the country. Imagine a drug cartel shipped a large pile of cash to the US and it was seized. I could imagine it might make sense to have US vs. Big Pile of Cash because the cartel isn't going to claim it and you could prove it was likely part of the drug trade. IMHO it went sideways as soon as it was used when an owner was available.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#164
post #16

Hmm I wonder how this will affect the other civil forfeiture practice of charging the item itself with the crime (eg: "United States v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency" [0]) where the owner of the property is never actually charged with a crime. Maybe this will stop that because without a conviction any fine could be considered excessive? The logic behind these cases has always baffled me. How do courts get around due proc…

It means Austin (below) would now apply for state/local cases.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/509/602

1. Forfeiture under §§ 881(a)(4) and (a)(7) is a monetary punishment and, as such, is subject to the limitations of the Excessive Fines Clause. Pp. 2804-12.

(a) The determinative question is not, as the Government would have it, whether forfeiture under §§ 881(a)(4) and (a)(7) is civil or criminal. The Eighth Amendment's text is not expressly limited to criminal cases, and its history does not require such a limitation. Rather, the crucial question is whether the forfeiture is monetary punishment, with which the Excessive Fines Clause is particularly concerned. Because sanctions frequently serve more than one purpose, the fact that a forfeiture serves remedial goals will not exclude it from the Clause's purview, so long as it can only be explained as serving in part to punish. See United States v. Halper, 490 U.S. 435, 448, 109 S.Ct. 1892, 1901, 104 L.Ed.2d 487. Thus, consideration must be given to whether, at the time the Eighth Amendment was ratified, forfeiture was understood at least in part as punishment and whether forfeiture under § 881(a)(4) and (a)(7) should be so understood today. Pp. 2804-06.

(b) A review of English and American law before, at the time of, and following the ratification of the Eighth Amendment demonstrates that forfeiture generally and statutory in rem forfeiture in particular historically have been understood, at least in part, as punishment. See, e.g., Peisch v. Ware, 8 U.S. (4 Cranch) 347, 364, 2 L.Ed. 643. The same understanding runs through this Court's cases rejecting the "innocence" of the owner as a common-law defense to forfeiture. See, e.g., Calero-Toledo v. Pearson Yacht Leasing Co., 416 U.S. 663, 683, 686, 687, 94 S.Ct. 2080, 2091, 2093, 2094, 40 L.Ed.2d 452. Pp. 2806-10.

(c) Forfeitures under §§ 881(a)(4) and (a)(7) are properly consideed punishment today, since nothing in these provisions contradicts the historical understanding, since both sections clearly focus on the owner's culpability by expressly providing "innocent owner" defenses and by tying forfeiture directly to the commission of drug offenses, and since the legislative history confirms that Congress understood the provisions as serving to deter and to punish. Thus, even assuming that the sections serve some remedial purpose, it cannot be concluded that forfeiture under the sections serves only that purpose. Pp. 2810-12.

2. The Court declines to establish a test for determining whether a forfeiture is constitutionally "excessive," since prudence dictates that the lower courts be allowed to consider that question in the first instance. P. 2812.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#165
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the rest of the court found the the excessive punishment protection of the eighth amendment was applied to the states through the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment as an essential right and therefore a component of “liberty” as used in the due process clause. Thomas disagrees with this fairly conventional incorporation argument and the idea of the protection as a fundamental right, but feels instead that a…

The constitution really clearly delineates between "persons" and "citizens." I hate the notion that none of the protections apply to noncitizens. Additionally, a lot of the constitution is actually phrased as limits on the government rather than rights as citizens.

I hate the notion that citizens don't have privileges, because otherwise citizenship is worthless. Obviously the natural rights of all persons ought to be respected.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#166
post #106

>The court had, however, previously ruled that most protections under the Bill of Rights apply to the states >...the Indiana Supreme Court ruled against Mr. Timbs, saying that the Eighth Amendment’s prohibition of excessive fines did not apply to ones imposed by states. Does anyone know which rights people assume they have but don't because the protection only applies on the federal level?

The 3rd (quartering of soldiers) and 7th (jury trial for civil cases) Amendments have not been incorporated at all, as well as parts of the 5th (Grand Jury indictment) and 6th (jury from the location of the crime). https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/incorporation_doctrine

The 3rd was incorporated against the State of New York by the Second Circuit court of appeals, it just has never reached the Supreme Court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engblom_v._Carey

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#167
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the rest of the court found the the excessive punishment protection of the eighth amendment was applied to the states through the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment as an essential right and therefore a component of “liberty” as used in the due process clause. Thomas disagrees with this fairly conventional incorporation argument and the idea of the protection as a fundamental right, but feels instead that a…

The constitution really clearly delineates between "persons" and "citizens." I hate the notion that none of the protections apply to noncitizens. Additionally, a lot of the constitution is actually phrased as limits on the government rather than rights as citizens.

The founding fathers didn't think the government granted you rights. They thought you already had rights by virtue of being a human being and it was the government's job to protect and not infringe upon those rights.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting thing, though, is that once a civil right is established and incorporated against the states, it's basically unassailable under our system. So while it takes a long time to get those rights properly enshrined, at least they seem to be safe.

>So while it takes a long time to get those rights properly enshrined, at least they seem to be safe. Our rights are so unassailable that I need to repeatedly pay a non-negligible amount of money to the government bear arms and get the approval of my local police chief if I want said arms to be reasonably modern. /s Some animals are more equal than others. Some rights are more unassailable than others. At least I can…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#169
post #159
post #131

BTW, if you have civil forfeiture at all (which I think should't exist), why does the money go to the seizing agency? Shouldn't it all go straight to the general fund to avoid a conflict of interest? Ditto punitive damages in court cases (where the defendent pays, say, $3M in restitution but say $500M in punitive damages because they could easily afford the $3M and need to suffer enough to change their ways). Why doe…

Also agree it shouldn't exist, but if there were a general fund, it shouldn't go towards funding any government agencies even in a distributed fashion. Maybe credit it out to all tax payers?

If it gets credited out to taxpayers, I would expect any public pressure to get rid of civil asset forfeiture to disappear very quickly.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#170
post #16

Hmm I wonder how this will affect the other civil forfeiture practice of charging the item itself with the crime (eg: "United States v. $124,700 in U.S. Currency" [0]) where the owner of the property is never actually charged with a crime. Maybe this will stop that because without a conviction any fine could be considered excessive? The logic behind these cases has always baffled me. How do courts get around due proc…

This specific case was taken and argued by the Institute for Justice (https://ij.org), a civil liberties legal charity, that has a goal of addressing exactly this problem.

The original civil forfeiture practices were put in place at the height of "the war on drugs" in the 80's as I recall. The rationale was you had drug dealer types that were successfully evading prosecution on the tougher criminal standards of proof while also flaunting the wealth they obtained from their drug related businesses. So the idea was you could have a civil process with a lower standard of proof than the criminal ones with which could punish them.

Of course, as the old saying goes, "the path to hell is paved with good intentions." and you get cases like this or worse even.

I contribute to the Institute for Justice for just this reason.

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