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How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

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Re: How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

#61

Post by ehavener »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #49
kodablah wrote: post #37

If the calls are so subjective that one can't tell the difference between a ref accidentally being way off and on purpose being way off, then maybe your sport/rules are the problem when being way off is either excusable or indeterminable. (in the NBA and some other sports, you can basically call a foul every play)

I would propose doing away with refs entirely, like in Ultimate Frisbee. This would entail pretty radical changes to professional sports, but why not. At the highest level of play (and pay), contestants should be able to fiercely compete under principles of fairness and cooperation instead of establishing the current culture of flopping, doping and "off the field issues".

So I'm up by 1 with 20 seconds to go in game 7 of the finals and I foul you. You really think I'm gonna hand over my championship out of fairness?

This would turn every professional sport into the UFC.

Re: How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

#62

Post by Agustus »

The NBA is in desperate need of a complete overhaul. We have this article that talks about the refs not making the sport fair. Franchise players are given leeway that would not be shown on a peewee court. And then this is complemented by last year’s article about which plays the players say they are actually going to participate in.

The NBA has become an entire Randy Moss organization: I will play when I want.

Re: How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

#63

Post by doodliego »

hnrodey wrote: post #23

This story is years old - why is it back the news? What changed? The publish date on the article is February 19th, 2019.

The NBA and the disgraced ref maintained that he bet on his own games, but did not fix outcomes.

The ESPN article argues otherwise through statistical analysis of foul calls as well as investigative reporting with the other gamblers and bookies in Donegha's circle of corruption. Based on their statements, it's rather conclusive that he skillfully manipulated games, although he couldn't control every outcome.

The article also highlights an unfortunate situation where Donaghy told the FBI about other crooked refs, but the FBI briefed NBA commissioner David Stern about their investigation early on, while it was still ongoing.

The investigation was then leaked to the press (strongly implying Stern did it). This made it impossible for Donaghy to wear a wire since he was now disgraced and fired from his job, and the NBA maintained that Donaghy's was an isolated incident of one rogue ref placing bets but not affecting games.

That's my summary of their reporting anyway. I found it persuasive.

Re: How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

#64

Post by porpoisely »

kodablah wrote: post #37

If the calls are so subjective that one can't tell the difference between a ref accidentally being way off and on purpose being way off, then maybe your sport/rules are the problem when being way off is either excusable or indeterminable. (in the NBA and some other sports, you can basically call a foul every play)

Yep. I think the most egregious example is in the NFL where you can call a hold ( on offense or defense ) on every play if you wanted to. Of course in baseball, the umpire can "manage" the game by changing their strike zone. I still don't understand why we need umpires to call balls and strikes. Can't they get video imaging system to make the call? This way we know it is objective.

Re: How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

#65

Post by porpoisely »

harry8 wrote: post #7

The nba clearly wants the refs to be bent, it's a requirement. They actively encourage seeing it the home teams way, favouring the big stars and call it to keep it close as this is all good for marketing. The question is not whether the refs are bent it's merely who is paying them to be so. I doubt anyone thinks the nba refs honestly try to enforce the rules with an even hand. Do any adults think this? NBA is a mix o…

The refs definitely protect the stars. But the stars are why people pay money and buy tickets. So there is definitely pressure to keep the stars off the bench and on the court. And if one team is extending a lead, they seem to love to call fouls to keep the score close and the game interesting.

Whether they do it consciously or unconsciously or at the behest of the nba, who knows. But definitely the NBA, like all major sports, are more entertainment rather than sport.

Re: How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

#66

Post by porpoisely »

avn2109 wrote: post #31
jds375 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's that simple and I don't see why it's a given that refs are bent. There is far more money at stake in maintaining the legitimacy of the the NBA (player salaries, tv deals, team valuations - all of these easily trump all the money made off of betting). Wouldn't that money fight a lot harder than any bent refs in order to fight corruption and maintain the legitimacy of the NBA? If a bigger story about…

This isn't a ref throwing games for kickbacks, but it's surprising that nowhere in this thread has anyone mentioned the most blatant game-fixing in league history, which was the 1984 Lakers-Celtics finals. In this series, the league thought their predominantly-White fanbase needed to see Larry Bird (who is White) win the series. (Spoiler alert: Celtics won in 7). Some of the highlights (lowlights?) of Magic Johnson b…

Don't forget the Lakers - Kings 2002 conference finals. The NBA really wanted Shaq and Kobe in the finals that year.

Re: How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

#67

Post by dang »

larrik wrote: post #28

I feel like dropping the "How" from the title makes it sound far less interesting than it is.

Fair enough. Have a how.

(Most leading 'hows' are worth dropping, I can tell you, having looked at a lot of data before writing the code to decapitate them.)

Re: How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

#68

Post by ken »

gowld wrote: post #56
UweSchmidt wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would propose doing away with refs entirely, like in Ultimate Frisbee. This would entail pretty radical changes to professional sports, but why not. At the highest level of play (and pay), contestants should be able to fiercely compete under principles of fairness and cooperation instead of establishing the current culture of flopping, doping and "off the field issues".

You can't do that when there are $billions on the table. What happens when someone cheats?

You'd need to find some way to allocate that money other than "to the winners". And/or, you'd need to disqualify or otherwise punish cheaters so strictly that players aren't tempted to do so.

Then again, I confess I really don't understand pro sports.

Re: How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

#69

Post by privong »

UweSchmidt wrote: post #50
privong wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you've watched any NBA in the past decade you can see a trend of calling fouls against teams that are winning too heavily against favorites. It's not hard. This should be fairly easy to test with play-by-play data[0]. I don't have time to do it just this moment, but I may give it a stab later. [0] https://eightthirtyfour.com/data

I am sure such a study would be interesting to a wide audience.

Thanks. If I manage to work through it, I'll put it online somewhere (and post the link to HN).

Re: How Former Ref Tim Donaghy Conspired to Fix NBA Games

#70

Post by PakG1 »

porpoisely wrote: post #64
kodablah wrote: post #37

If the calls are so subjective that one can't tell the difference between a ref accidentally being way off and on purpose being way off, then maybe your sport/rules are the problem when being way off is either excusable or indeterminable. (in the NBA and some other sports, you can basically call a foul every play)

Yep. I think the most egregious example is in the NFL where you can call a hold ( on offense or defense ) on every play if you wanted to. Of course in baseball, the umpire can "manage" the game by changing their strike zone. I still don't understand why we need umpires to call balls and strikes. Can't they get video imaging system to make the call? This way we know it is objective.

It's slowly happening. Look at how tennis can have challenges now. But I think a limited number of challenges per match? But I think people like having the human element a bit, and the accompanying controversy. Entire industries are built on discussing this stuff.
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