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Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

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Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#81

Post by walterstucco »

TadaScientist wrote: post #27
DubiousPusher wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. National identities didn't arise naturally. Many of them were very thoughtfully and intentionally invented. For most of human history, the idea that people over a geography the size of Engalnd would see themselves as one people would've been ridiculous. It's really only in the last 200-400 years that people have accepted the nation…

Oh really? National identities didn't arise naturally? Ask the Greeks and the Italians

Italy didn't even exist until the unification in 1861.

That actually was 1871, when Rome was annexed and became the capital.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#82

Post by yeahforsureman »

isostatic wrote: post #55
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are looking at are the views of the MEPs. MEPs represent specific people living in the country, not the country as whole. This statement was issued by the countries , meaning the representatives of the governments currently in power in those countries.

Of the listed countries, 6 of the 8 - Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Sweden, Estonia and Denmark - are all 1 constituency countries, so the MEPs represent the entire country MEPs may well decide different things to the government though, just as the U.S. House could have a different view to the Senate.

I guess you must be talking about the JURI committee of the European parliament. Hell of a lot more MEPs in EP. Anyway, this topic isn't about EP really as this statement relates to an EU Council vote, i.e. involving member state goverments. Whole nuther organ.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#83

Post by gpderetta »

sotojuan wrote: post #40
TadaScientist wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh really? National identities didn't arise naturally? Ask the Greeks and the Italians

Italy is probably the worst European example of this. For most of history the country was split into nation states that warred with each other. Even after unification, there's a strong cultural divide between the north and the south.

And Italian really didn't become the primary language untill the invention of the television.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#84

Post by factsaresacred »

Sammi wrote: post #69
aikah wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. As opposed to the pedestal people put supra national institutions such as the EU? Rome? Napoleon's Empire? all failed eventually. > National identities didn't arise naturally. Neither did the European Union. All societies are man made constructs, what your point? > It's only our contemporary bias that tells us that the subordinati…

I think the parent comment is trying to make the point that nation state identity is equally as arbitrary and artificial as a continent identity. People like identifying with a group. It seems like an innate craving of humanity. I think we should learn to be careful not to be exploited for this craving. Whether it is a nation, the EU, a religion or a soccer team, one should be very very careful.

> nation state identity is equally as arbitrary and artificial as a continent identity.

It's not though. A person in Stockholm has lot more in common with a person in Malmo than he does with a person in Sofia.

Nation-states spring from a collection of ethnically similar tribes in proximity. In most cases the tribes volunteer to be a part of a nation (those that don't end up creating new nations or separatist movements).

It may be 'artificial' but it's certainly not arbitrary.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#85

Post by jbarberu »

ameister14 wrote: post #74
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proportional representation. The MEPs don't represent the entire country, they represent the specific people who voted for them. The fundamental principle of who people represent under PR is very different from FPTP. Under FTPT, the people living in a certain area vote for a "winner", who then represents the entire area. If 51% of the people vote for candidate A, and 49% vote for candidate B, then the wishes of 49% o…

So I vote for a party in the EU as a whole, and if enough people in my country or other countries do too, some candidate from some country gets elected?

No. For the EU parliament you vote for a representative (from your country, that usually belongs to some political party).

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#86

Post by mattmanser »

isostatic wrote: post #55
Tuna-Fish wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are looking at are the views of the MEPs. MEPs represent specific people living in the country, not the country as whole. This statement was issued by the countries , meaning the representatives of the governments currently in power in those countries.

Of the listed countries, 6 of the 8 - Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Sweden, Estonia and Denmark - are all 1 constituency countries, so the MEPs represent the entire country MEPs may well decide different things to the government though, just as the U.S. House could have a different view to the Senate.

What are you talking about?

The Netherlands alone has 26 MEPs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_(European_Parlia...

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#88

Post by avar »

Zenst wrote: post #39
folbec wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the vote is before brexit it's 23.88% after brexit it's 27.42%.

You raise a very poignant point, should votes that are borderline, that the UK MEP's have voted recently be reviewed?

No, just like votes that happened just before new EU members joined in the past weren't revisited. You're either in or you're out. Britain's still in, and thus still gets to vote.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#89

Post by sonnyblarney »

Sammi wrote: post #69
aikah wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The pedestal contemporary people put national identity on is just that, contemporary. As opposed to the pedestal people put supra national institutions such as the EU? Rome? Napoleon's Empire? all failed eventually. > National identities didn't arise naturally. Neither did the European Union. All societies are man made constructs, what your point? > It's only our contemporary bias that tells us that the subordinati…

I think the parent comment is trying to make the point that nation state identity is equally as arbitrary and artificial as a continent identity. People like identifying with a group. It seems like an innate craving of humanity. I think we should learn to be careful not to be exploited for this craving. Whether it is a nation, the EU, a religion or a soccer team, one should be very very careful.

"nation state identity is equally as arbitrary and artificial as a continent identity."

I would disagree.

Nation states are formalizations of ethnic groups and they did arise naturally. They are not arbitrary.

'Sweden' is where the 'Swedes' live, essentially. And they have for a very long time.

There is not much arbitrary about the nation states of Europe, they mostly have clear historical orientation.

The Habsbourg Empire - now that is an 'artificial state'. Spain, Netherlands, Austria, Hungary etc.. It faded ultimately because it was arbitrary.

WW1 - which has it's roots in turmoil within the Austro-Hungarian Empire (read: the succession of Habsbourg dynasty) - was caused at least in part by this 'arbitrary' mapping.

'Europe' is surely where 'Europeans live' - but - the 'EU' is not Europe. Many citizens (in some cases majorities) voted against the Treaty of Lisbon which gave the EU it's most powerful legal status, and most citizens didn't really have a vote.

The EU is a body politic, a rather undemocratic one, it's not quite the same as 'Europe'.

The legislation in question should be a pan-European concern, and I believe it belongs at the level of the EU, even if the EU is oddly constructed and has way too much power.

I don't think it's really a national issue in any sense, there doesn't seem to be any clear boundaries on this.

There are ideological advocates on all sides, and very specific economic forces from a few different nations acting as impetus.

Re: Netherlands, Finland, Luxembourg, Poland and Italy Oppose EU Copyright Directive

#90

Post by RaceWon »

mstade wrote: post #61
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> countries like the U.K., who have a strong national identity I laughed, good one. You're aware of Scotland almost voting for independence, and Northern Ireland being demographically only a matter of time until independence (reunification with Ireland)? Or that both of those places voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU? Gibraltar voted 99% remain. So which bit of the UK wants to be an independent nation? There's…

As a non-brit having lived in London for a few years my (mostly but not entirely tounge in cheek) take on it is that it seems pretty much all parts of England loathes every other part of England, to variying degrees; while all other parts of the kingdom also dislikes most of England, to varying degrees. The only thing that seems to unite the British, in my mind, is non-londoner's (and some londoner's too!) dislike fo…

I believe they (Formula One fans) also claim Lewis as one of their own, as they certainly did with Mansell.
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