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U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

nytimes.com

191–200 of 457 posts

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#191
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the executive's role to determine whether something is constitutional or not.

Correct, but refusal to enforce a law is one of the checks the executive has on the legislature. When this happens it's up to the judiciary to mediate.

That doesn't /seem/ right - executive can /veto/ a law before it is passed, but I don't believe they are given the ability to not enforce that law once it's been passed. That is effectively creating law, and is reaching into the legislative branch, still.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#192
post #165
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constitution really clearly delineates between "persons" and "citizens." I hate the notion that none of the protections apply to noncitizens. Additionally, a lot of the constitution is actually phrased as limits on the government rather than rights as citizens.

I hate the notion that citizens don't have privileges, because otherwise citizenship is worthless. Obviously the natural rights of all persons ought to be respected.

Citizens have the most important privilege: the ability to vote.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#193

The important thing to understand about this case is the background and what the SCotUS actually ruled on. It's actually rather narrow ruling even if it is extremely important. The court exercised judicial restraint here, and made the minimum ruling necessary. Timbs was convicted of possession/sale/whatever, jailed for a year, and fined $1,200. The state confiscated his Range Rover as well. Timbs sued or appealed the…

I find this very remarkable about American legal system. The supreme court could have technically showed some bleeding heart by not showing judicial restraint. Instead they just did their job. Americans must thank this judicial culture.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note also that corporations are 'people' but not 'citizens' and would likewise be disenfranchised from the protections provided by the bill of rights and the constitution when it came to state law. edit: there seems to be some lawyering about the difference between the meaning of 'people' and 'persons' that I do not understand at this time.

Corporations are not people, and the Supreme Court has never found that they are -- this soundbite is a misunderstanding of Citizens United v. FEC .

That's just not true. Corporations have been recognized as legal persons in the US for well over a century prior to Citizens United, in both judicial precedent and federal statutes.

I agree with what I assume you believe - that this ought not be the case, and corporations should be more restricted in their rights than natural persons. But simply claiming it to be so is willful ignorance.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are not people, and the Supreme Court has never found that they are -- this soundbite is a misunderstanding of Citizens United v. FEC .

Corporate personhood has a very long history in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood

people =/= person.

All people are persons, but not all persons are people. I enjoy Stewart, Colbert and Oliver as much as the next person (vernacular usage, not legal), but they've done a lot of damage to the national discourse on this topic.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#196
post #66
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to case law is that ambiguities in the statute are interpreted differently each time. Being subject to the law, I would much rather live in a system designed to automatically reduce ambiguities over time, rather than to have to wait for the legislature to have the political will and resources to address them.

The USA is a common-law jurisdiction which means that convention and "how things were always done" have outsized significance when compared to civil-law jurisdictions like much of western Europe. Civil-law jurisdictions tend to rely more on statute, but they also have legislatures that can actually get things done, rather than cultivate this bogus adversarial relationship between the people and the government wherein…

To my understanding, "common-law" technically refers to the body of precedent that the United States grandfathered in from English jurisprudence and prior colonial practice into the new United States government, as opposed to "precedence", which is the general principle by which prior rulings at the right scope are respected like statutes are. But that's just a semantic quibble.

But on the question of the weight that precedence carries: I'd be curious how you feel about federally enforce integration of schools as a result of Brown v. Board of Education, or abortion as a right thanks to Roe v. Wade, as two examples of seminal increases of rights resulting from the heavy role of precedence.

Personally I'm a bit of a hybrid in my own opinion. I'm partial to the sentiment that the legislature is the supreme branch of the Government, being the representatives of the people. So in principle, I'm opposed to drastically new doctrines arriving by way of court ruling, especially when they seem a little too "creative" and go outside the scope of interpreting existing law and statute into the territory of what "ought to be law". I prefer that such significant changes be a matter of federal statute, or when they're a matter of novel constitutional interpretation, that they originate in actual constitutional amendment. (Though even then in the case of federal statute, there are very real questions about how and when the federal Congress may override the states, and jurisprudence/precedence has been an important part of working out those questions).

But on the other hand, I am strong a believer that once a court with sufficient scope and jurisdiction has ruled, and a further appeals process is either at a dead end or would be too injurious for various reasons, then upholding the rule of law is of preeminent importance to the stability of society against the breakout of violence or factionalism. So, for example, in the case of Roe v. Wade, I feel the ruling was far too creative and far too tenuous in its actual references to the Constitution. Nevertheless, it is now the law of the land, and if I want the other protections the government provides and protects for me, I feel it would be hypocritical to flout that law just in the cases that I prefer. I actually feel that the outcome of Roe v. Wade was morally egregious; but I won't rebel against it or seek redress outside the established legal order unless I feel ready to morally take responsibility for the potential consequences of anarchy or of violence outside the civil order. Of course, not every question of civil disobedience is realistically divisive or pervasive enough that civil war is likely if I or others rebel. But civil war and anarchy can be the product of a thousand cuts, as it war, and if I had to oversimplify and take it to an extreme, I would say that I do not feel morally justified in flouting a nationally established law unless I feel sure that even the risk of widespread death and war might be warranted. Even with ongoing inequities and injustices (sometimes severe and chronic) in American Society, I still personally feel we generally (generally!) enjoy such a magnitude of protection, liberty, and privilege in this country, and I'm not sure that risking that is truly moral on the balance.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#197
post #145

A swipe against excessive civil forfeitures succeeds. These aggressive actions require citizens to forfeit property far in excess of any harm committed. In the court case, a man had his car seized when caught selling a few hundred dollars of heroine. We have laws to punish illegal behavior, but it’s not right that all your property get snatched up too. The most egregious of these cases often involve no due process at…

This case was about criminal forfeiture, not civil forfeiture. The aggrieved was convicted of crime, and the forfeiture was a fine for that. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States#Civil_versus_criminal_forfeiture

Hmm, seems like the 8th amendment doesn't apply to civil forfeiture at all, and this ruling would do nothing for it. Civil I guess sounds like a 4th amendment case.

Is that about right?

EDIT: Also you should tell the New York Times. "Criminal forfeiture" does not appear in the article, though "civil forfeiture" does.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Additionally, a lot of the constitution is actually phrased as limits on the government rather than rights as citizens. This is because the Constitution is supposed to be an enumeration of what the government is allowed to do. The limitations are there to narrow the scope of those enumerated powers. In this context, enumerating most rights of citizens would have been redundant. The enumerated citizen rights were th…

> Unfortunately, Commerce Clause abuse and the effective neutralization of the 10th Amendment has created the opposite situation where the government can do anything it wants as long as it isn't specifically prohibited, and citizens are only guaranteed rights if they are specified. I mean, that's true, but it's also true that it's extremely difficult to get 50 states to jump forward at the same time, particularly whe…

    No, I don't think that adding more representatives would help the problem
I think it would. Along with creating more slots for minority candidates to get elected in. There's also the matter of the cost of lobbying. Right now lobbying is dirt cheap because you can spend a very little amount of money to influence one representative and that one vote in congress can have a huge effect. If there were more people voting in congress the value of that one person would be reduced. The lobbyist would have to work to get multiple congressmen to have the same influence which makes bribery less cost effective than it currently is.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#199
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not quite right. The Bill of Rights originally only applied to the federal government, until after the civil war when the 14th amendment was passed. Since then the clause in that amendment saying no one can be deprived of life or liberty without due process has been interpreted to mean most of the bill of rights also applies to the states. This ruling said as much for the 8th amendment prohibitions on excessiv…

As a permanent resident who lives in the US, the idea that basic protections of law should only apply to citizens is terrifying. It's not the same outcome at all. Due process is afforded to "persons".

Indeed. If they can successfully rebind the Bill of Rights as applied to states based on P&I instead of the due process clause, the Bill of Rights may evaporate for non-citizen immigrants. A state(i.e. Republican ones) may then pass discriminatory laws for which the Bill of Rights no longer applies against.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Puts Limits on Police Power to Seize Private Property

#200
post #183
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means Austin (below) would now apply for state/local cases. https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/509/602 1. Forfeiture under §§ 881(a)(4) and (a)(7) is a monetary punishment and, as such, is subject to the limitations of the Excessive Fines Clause. Pp. 2804-12. (a) The determinative question is not, as the Government would have it, whether forfeiture under §§ 881(a)(4) and (a)(7) is civil or criminal. The…

So from the sound of that it seems like civil asset forfeiture without charges filed or judgments rendered against a person should be dead in the water legally right? Because under this ruling any forfeiture under §§ 881(a) would be considered a punishment and there's a right to due process before punishment correct?

https://casetext.com/case/von-hofe-v-us

:-)

Claimants Harold and Kathleen von Hofe appeal from a civil judgment ordering the forfeiture of their home, 32 Medley Lane. They contend the forfeiture violates the Excessive Fines Clause of the Eighth Amendment, which "limits the government's power to extract payments, whether in cash or in kind, as punishment for some offense." Austin v. United States, 509 U.S. 602, 609-10, 113 S.Ct. 2801, 125 L.Ed.2d 488 (1993) (internal citation and quotation marks omitted). We affirm the forfeiture of Mr. von Hofe's interest in 32 Medley Lane, but not the forfeiture of Mrs. von Hofe's interest. Because the extent of the forfeiture bears no correlation either with Mrs. von Hofe's minimal culpability or any harm she purportedly caused, the Excessive Fines Clause precludes forfeiture of her entire one-half interest in 32 Medley Lane.

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